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War of the Ring: Lords of Middle-earth» Forums » Rules

Subject: Removing Balrog Lesser Minion Die rss

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jom bee
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Can someone please confirm the correct ruling for the recent scenario that took place during a WOTR/LOME game.

The Balrog was mustered in Moria and his die was in play from a previous turn. The fellowship declared after passing through Moria in the fellowship phase,and a hunt tile was drawn as per the Balrog's ability. An Eye tile was drawn, and this eliminated the guide (legolas)and the Balrog. According to the rules, it would seem that the Balrogs die would still remain in play, and be rolled. This does not seem to make sense since the Balrog was eliminated before the action die roll. Can someone please confirm?
 
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Ralf Schemmann
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It is indeed correct per the rules, as the dice pool is put together at the very beginning of the round, before the Fellowship phase.

I would interpret it as the presence of the Balrog lingering in Middle-earth for a while. The Balrog result itself will of course be unusable anyway.
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Kevin Chapman
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Ralf is correct.
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Heikki Laakkonen
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Uthoroc wrote:
The Balrog result itself will of course be unusable anyway.


That is usually the case. However that result could also be used e.g. to discard A Power Too Great or The Power of Tom Bombadil.
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Heikki Laakkonen
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Also the new Gandalf's die is already in the action dice pool if Balrog and Gandalf happen to kill each other with that drawn eye tile when the Fellowship is declared. That happened to me not too long ago, it was quite funny
 
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jom bee
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Uthoroc wrote:
It is indeed correct per the rules, as the dice pool is put together at the very beginning of the round, before the Fellowship phase.

I would interpret it as the presence of the Balrog lingering in Middle-earth for a while. The Balrog result itself will of course be unusable anyway.



Krieghund wrote:
Ralf is correct.


Thank you both very much for confirming!

Personally, I would think it would be better worded if removal of any die happens immediately when the character is eliminated/removed. I guess this is the one occurrence where it can happen in a phase before the dice are rolled.
 
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Raf B
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Uthoroc wrote:
I would interpret it as the presence of the Balrog lingering in Middle-earth for a while. The Balrog result itself will of course be unusable anyway.

+1

To Ralf's point, the designers have baked in a level of abstraction that results in non-linear outcomes at times. This crops up most often with separating Companions who retroactively follow a different path than the one ultimately taken by the Fellowship when it is next declared or revealed. The flexibility the Shadow gains from the Balrog's die might play out on a different part of the map, but the presence of this ancient evil, even if short-lived, still influences the course of events.
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Thom Brennan
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This is kind of a corollary to the earlier message thread. The Balrog was activated and moved out of Moria to threaten Lorien. Then I rolled a Remove Balrog Dice star result, while the Witch King was in play.

So, it's clear from the LoME rules (pg. 24) that the Balrog die is removed from the game during the next Recover Action Dice phase. But happens to the Balrog figure itself? Is it stuck wherever it is located, since you can't move it without the Balrog die? Or can the Balrog also be moved as part of an army or with a Character dice result? (I see nothing in the rules to support that, BTW.)

From what I can tell, the Balrog die should be removed, but the Balrog figure remains on the board and in an active status. Unable to move, but active. It will stay in this status until Gandalf takes it out, or the Fellowship player chooses to use a Will of the West die result to make it inactive... which seems kind of pointless to me. If the Balrog is with an army, it could still contribute to that army, but only on defense, since it can't move. And, of course, the Fire and Shadow ability is still available. But that's of little use if the Fellowship has moved past the Balrog.

Seems simpler if the figure is removed along with the dice, but I don't see that anyplace in the rules.
 
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Grondeaux wrote:
This is kind of a corollary to the earlier message thread. The Balrog was activated and moved out of Moria to threaten Lorien. Then I rolled a Remove Balrog Dice star result, while the Witch King was in play.

So, it's clear from the LoME rules (pg. 24) that the Balrog die is removed from the game during the next Recover Action Dice phase. But happens to the Balrog figure itself? Is it stuck wherever it is located, since you can't move it without the Balrog die? Or can the Balrog also be moved as part of an army or with a Character dice result? (I see nothing in the rules to support that, BTW.)

From what I can tell, the Balrog die should be removed, but the Balrog figure remains on the board and in an active status. Unable to move, but active. It will stay in this status until Gandalf takes it out, or the Fellowship player chooses to use a Will of the West die result to make it inactive... which seems kind of pointless to me. If the Balrog is with an army, it could still contribute to that army, but only on defense, since it can't move. And, of course, the Fire and Shadow ability is still available. But that's of little use if the Fellowship has moved past the Balrog.

Seems simpler if the figure is removed along with the dice, but I don't see that anyplace in the rules.

AFAIU when Balrog is active he is a level two character/minion, there is no reason why you couldn't move him with a character die.
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Raf B
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Removal of a special action die has no effect on the associated character.
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Kevin Chapman
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Grondeaux wrote:
Or can the Balrog also be moved as part of an army or with a Character dice result?

Yes.

Grondeaux wrote:
(I see nothing in the rules to support that, BTW.)

The Balrog is a Minion, so it can be moved in the same manner as any other Minion. There is nothing in the rules that says otherwise. The Balrog result on its Action die is simply another way of using the Balrog and the Army it's in, similar to the use of a Character die to move or attack with an Army with a Leader and/or Character.
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Thom Brennan
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Krieghund wrote:
The Balrog is a Minion, so it can be moved in the same manner as any other Minion. There is nothing in the rules that says otherwise. The Balrog result on its Action die is simply another way of using the Balrog and the Army it's in, similar to the use of a Character die to move or attack with an Army with a Leader and/or Character.


Well now, when you put it that way, it makes an enormous amount of sense. Thanks!
 
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Genestealer Patriarch
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You still usually need the "Use Balrog" result to activate the Balrog and let it leave Moria. If the Balrog dice gets discarded before the result appears, the Balrog has to hope the event card comes up to wake him up. Otherwise he is going to have a rather static game.
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