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Subject: Concerning about the theme 'Rising sun' rss

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Robin Yoon
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I've been backing many of the CMON games but not this time.
When I found a rising sun symbol on the board from the kickstarter page it was like Oh my.....
The symbol of Rising sun feels very uncomfortable with East Asian people especially for Chinese and Korean people.

It's not well known to western people but Japanese army used Rising sun when they conquered many countries on world war 2 and its like Hakenkreuz used by Nazi.
Can you imagine a board game based on some kind of Nazi theme?

Maybe some of you think the symbol of rising sun was already used before world war 2. But you have to remember Hakenkreuz was also used long before world war 2 and nowadays how is it?

This could be a good game similar to blood rage but this theme matter makes me so sad that I can't back this project.
Below is the article about Rising sun flag matter.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/06/27...
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Bill Bilodeau
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It's being discussed over here.
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Phil Schmidt
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Just so I'm clear, you find the name of the game offensive because has the same name as a flag. As far as I've seen the flag or any similar symbolism isn't used anywhere in the game.

I don't think that's fair. Rising Sun doesn't have to be offensive and references all kinds of stuff- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rising_Sun.

I don't have to imagine a board game based on some kind of nazi theme. Just about every WW2 game uses nazi soldiers and includes the symbols themselves.






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Tyrell Wood
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This is a board game. Not a political statement. Just buy it already. Geeesh.
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Jason Brown
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There are lots of games that use the German and Nazi flags, there's also plenty of games that use the confederate flag too. Many people identify them with awful things, but they are used differently in the context of the game.

Do you consider Axis & Allies Pacific 1940 or Memoir '44: Pacific Theater offensive? In those games players actually invade and occupy Korea and China under the rising sun flag, but I've never seen it raised as a concern.
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Patrick Reynolds
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If someone says that something is offensive to them, why is it so important to try to change their mind or invalidate them? OP finds the title and rising sun imagery (which is featured in the game - it's the symbol for victory points) troublesome, and has explained why. That should be good enough. I'd have a hard time supporting a product that had elements I found offensive as well. It's important to point situations like this out (sometimes when enough people complained, the offending elements have been removed/changed; I'm thinking of Five Tribes specifically). But any discussion about whether or not the OP has the right to be offended by something is unhelpful.
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Lorenzo Chiappini
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ftstudent wrote:


I've been backing many of the CMON games but not this time.
When I found a rising sun symbol on the board from the kickstarter page it was like Oh my.....
The symbol of Rising sun feels very uncomfortable with East Asian people especially for Chinese and Korean people.

It's not well known to western people but Japanese army used Rising sun when they conquered many countries on world war 2 and its like Hakenkreuz used by Nazi.
Can you imagine a board game based on some kind of Nazi theme?

Maybe some of you think the symbol of rising sun was already used before world war 2. But you have to remember Hakenkreuz was also used long before world war 2 and nowadays how is it?


Rommel in the desert, Hitler's war, and more games than any living human can enumerate have swastikas and other nazi imagery. You can command SS squads in Combat Commander:Europe, and in plenty of those you can at least play as the Axis. Most people don't care, or they just don't buy them.

Confronted with that, medieval Japan with pandas and ogres seems like a stretch to relate to WW2. Plus, most people spending 100 bucks on a kickstarter are adults with jobs, they can judge for themselves if their personal friends and gaming group buddies can deal with the theme.
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Kai Do
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If it offends you or it is something that disturbs you, then you shouldn't buy it, nothing wrong with that.

However, most people here will not associate "Rising Sun" name or the symbol with swastika or Nazi hate symbolism. I should point out there is the game "Secret Hitler," that seems to be a big hit, so maybe people have started to move on. Whether they should or not is another thing.

It is up to CMON to consider changing the board if they want to attract a bigger market in Asia. Feudal Japan was a bloody era and this game is more focused on that, with fantasy themes; it does not celebrate hate or massacre of Chinese and Koreans during WWII. cool
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Justen Brown
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Germany certainly has a problem with Nazi imagery so maybe try putting yourselves in the shoes of another person before being so judgmental, guys.
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They Call Me
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pkreynolds wrote:
If someone says that something is offensive to them, why is it so important to try to change their mind or invalidate them? OP finds the title and rising sun imagery (which is featured in the game - it's the symbol for victory points) troublesome, and has explained why. That should be good enough. I'd have a hard time supporting a product that had elements I found offensive as well. It's important to point situations like this out (sometimes when enough people complained, the offending elements have been removed/changed; I'm thinking of Five Tribes specifically). But any discussion about whether or not the OP has the right to be offended by something is unhelpful.


OP came here to inform people he was offended and try to inform them on the Rising Sun, okay cool. OP tried to come here to change other people's mind, okay cool. You're defending OP but aren't they doing the same thing you're trying to say people need to stop doing? If I just say I'm offended then it's hands off? I'm offended you're taking this position defending OP because I find myself reading the same posts on this forum over and over.

I mean there are so many other posts that are basically the same thing, so why bring it up..... Again? Vote with your wallet, why come here to have your thought process validated?

Also the Secret Hitler game has Hitler in the name and he killed millions of innocent people so I made sure to post about it in the BGG forum. I will take to inform everyone I was offended and have made it my BGG goal to bring it up as much as possible. I will be offended if you do not agree.

Oh btw I'm German-Okinawan so I guess my opinion matters more right?
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Patrick Reynolds
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Maybe the OP isn't trying to "have his thought process validated." Maybe it's an attempt to inform people of a cultural sensitivity that they may not have been aware of. One person being offended by something doesn't have to have an effect on anyone else. Why is it such an problem? If you don't like seeing threads like this, don't read them. It's not as if it's some kind of Herculean chore to scroll past them.
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Richard Sampson
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jaybeethree wrote:
Germany certainly has a problem with Nazi imagery so maybe try putting yourselves in the shoes of another person before being so judgmental, guys.
But does Germany prohibit the uses of proper swastikas by Hindu people because that is kind of what we are talking about here. It is potentially offensive imagery used in a different, non-offensive context that is historically appropriate.
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Michael S
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tyrellrwood wrote:
This is a board game. Not a political statement. Just buy it already. Geeesh.


Maybe dont do that. That really isnt fair. Something that bothers you might not bother Jinha in the same way. I dont think if you came here with something that bothered you personally and you opened up and voiced your concern that someone telling you

"This is a board game. Not a political statement. Just buy it already."

would be the answer you want to hear. We dont all have to agree on the things that bother us but we can all at least do a little research on the topic when someone brings something up and hopefully all learn something from each other.

Don't take any of this in a negative tone Im just trying to share another perspective with you.
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They Call Me
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pkreynolds wrote:
Maybe the OP isn't trying to "have his thought process validated." Maybe it's an attempt to inform people of a cultural sensitivity that they may not have been aware of. One person being offended by something doesn't have to have an effect on anyone else. Why is it such an problem? If you don't like seeing threads like this, don't read them. It's not as if it's some kind of Herculean chore to scroll past them.


The comment I made should be good enough, why are you trying to change my mind like you said? You're offending me. And I tried to scroll past them but the three of the top four threads are people complaining about something related to Asian culture and this game.....

edit: whoops make that 4 of top 5
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Patrick Reynolds
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Not trying to change your mind about anything. Have a nice day
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Justen Brown
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ras2124 wrote:
jaybeethree wrote:
Germany certainly has a problem with Nazi imagery so maybe try putting yourselves in the shoes of another person before being so judgmental, guys.
But does Germany prohibit the uses of proper swastikas by Hindu people because that is kind of what we are talking about here. It is potentially offensive imagery used in a different, non-offensive context that is historically appropriate.


It is 100% not what we're talking about here. The Nazi symbol is inverted and always tilted, and usually accompanied with the eagle.

Furthermore, the symbol is not historical with the game being designed. The Nisshoki, the "sun-mark flag", wasn't adapted nationally until 1870 following the fall of the Tokugawa shogunate and the end of feudalism in Japan. It represents the Empire of Japan both historically and literally.

I understand why they chose it: the sun symbol represents Japan in the minds of Westerners. But please, please, please I beg everyone not to use history as a defense. This game is as historically accurate as The Hobbit.
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Michael S
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Mokujinn wrote:
pkreynolds wrote:
Maybe the OP isn't trying to "have his thought process validated." Maybe it's an attempt to inform people of a cultural sensitivity that they may not have been aware of. One person being offended by something doesn't have to have an effect on anyone else. Why is it such an problem? If you don't like seeing threads like this, don't read them. It's not as if it's some kind of Herculean chore to scroll past them.


And I tried to scroll past them but the three of the top four threads are people complaining about something related to Asian culture and this game.....

edit: whoops make that 4 of top 5



And there is nothing wrong with that...

I have seen complaints on BGG about how religious things are handled in a game, gore, nazis, war in general, sexual content in games and I could go on.

I usually stop and read them, get another persons perspective and then move on. Thats what its all about really, we are all a bunch of different people who love this hobby we all come to it from different background and life experiences. We dont have to agree but everyone is entitled to feel however they want.
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L S
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ras2124 wrote:
jaybeethree wrote:
Germany certainly has a problem with Nazi imagery so maybe try putting yourselves in the shoes of another person before being so judgmental, guys.
But does Germany prohibit the uses of proper swastikas by Hindu people because that is kind of what we are talking about here. It is potentially offensive imagery used in a different, non-offensive context that is historically appropriate.

Just FYI, in the public space, all swastikas (standard or reversed) are banned in Germany. Religious congregations are exempt from the ban if and only if they are using the "sun wheel" symbol in a private liturgical context with a clearly deliminated group of believers ("in liturgischem Zusammenhang mit einer klar abgegrenzten Vereinigung von Gläubigen", as per the 1973 judgment on Falun Gong).
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Richard Sampson
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jaybeethree wrote:
ras2124 wrote:
jaybeethree wrote:
Germany certainly has a problem with Nazi imagery so maybe try putting yourselves in the shoes of another person before being so judgmental, guys.
But does Germany prohibit the uses of proper swastikas by Hindu people because that is kind of what we are talking about here. It is potentially offensive imagery used in a different, non-offensive context that is historically appropriate.


It is 100% not what we're talking about here. The Nazi symbol is inverted and always tilted, and usually accompanied with the eagle.
Yes, it is. There is no actual Rising Sun flag on the board or any of the components. The OP is referring the half rising sun symbols (like this: http://www.clker.com/clipart-rising-sun-.html). These are clearly not the imagery associated with WWII or Imperial Japan. Instead they are a modified version of the generic rising sun imagery that is associated with Japan more broadly.
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They Call Me
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reckoner wrote:
Mokujinn wrote:
pkreynolds wrote:
Maybe the OP isn't trying to "have his thought process validated." Maybe it's an attempt to inform people of a cultural sensitivity that they may not have been aware of. One person being offended by something doesn't have to have an effect on anyone else. Why is it such an problem? If you don't like seeing threads like this, don't read them. It's not as if it's some kind of Herculean chore to scroll past them.


And I tried to scroll past them but the three of the top four threads are people complaining about something related to Asian culture and this game.....

edit: whoops make that 4 of top 5



And there is nothing wrong with that...

I have seen complaints on BGG about how religious things are handled in a game, gore, nazis, war in general, sexual content in games and I could go on.

I usually stop and read them, get another persons perspective and then move on. Thats what its all about really, we are all a bunch of different people who love this hobby we all come to it from different background and life experiences. We dont have to agree but everyone is entitled to feel however they want.


Okay so there should be nothing wrong with me complaining about all the complaining then dude. Try to see it from my perspective. I get where you're coming from and trying to tell me to chill but listen to me.

My main complaint is people, who are not Japanese, offended about the Japanese portrayal. Why are people offended FOR my culture? I showed my mom this game and she thought it was lame, because board game lol, but not once said a single thing about portrayal of the Japanese culture. That's a 50+ year old Japanese woman, why are people getting offended about Japanese culture, that have no right to be???? Or are we just offended at everything that could possibly offend someone, Idk.
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Richard Sampson
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Probably also worth mentioning that CMON is not an American company. They are based in Singapore, which was occupied by Japan during WWII.
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Patrick Reynolds
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Mokujinn wrote:
reckoner wrote:
Mokujinn wrote:
pkreynolds wrote:
Maybe the OP isn't trying to "have his thought process validated." Maybe it's an attempt to inform people of a cultural sensitivity that they may not have been aware of. One person being offended by something doesn't have to have an effect on anyone else. Why is it such an problem? If you don't like seeing threads like this, don't read them. It's not as if it's some kind of Herculean chore to scroll past them.


And I tried to scroll past them but the three of the top four threads are people complaining about something related to Asian culture and this game.....

edit: whoops make that 4 of top 5



And there is nothing wrong with that...

I have seen complaints on BGG about how religious things are handled in a game, gore, nazis, war in general, sexual content in games and I could go on.

I usually stop and read them, get another persons perspective and then move on. Thats what its all about really, we are all a bunch of different people who love this hobby we all come to it from different background and life experiences. We dont have to agree but everyone is entitled to feel however they want.


Okay so there should be nothing wrong with me complaining about all the complaining then dude. Try to see it from my perspective. I get where you're coming from and trying to tell me to chill but listen to me.

My main complaint is people, who are not Japanese, offended about the Japanese portrayal. Why are people offended FOR my culture? I showed my mom this game and she thought it was lame, because board game lol, but not once said a single thing about portrayal of the Japanese culture. That's a 50+ year old Japanese woman, why are people getting offended about Japanese culture, that have no right to be???? Or are we just offended at everything that could possibly offend someone, Idk.


Again, if someone says they are offended by something, nobody else has any ground whatsoever to say otherwise. There's really no wiggle room here.
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Justen Brown
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Mokujinn wrote:
Okay so there should be nothing wrong with me complaining about all the complaining then dude. Try to see it from my perspective. I get where you're coming from and trying to tell me to chill but listen to me.

My main complaint is people, who are not Japanese, offended about the Japanese portrayal. Why are people offended FOR my culture? I showed my mom this game and she thought it was lame, because board game lol, but not once said a single thing about portrayal of the Japanese culture. That's a 50+ year old Japanese woman, why are people getting offended about Japanese culture, that have no right to be???? Or are we just offended at everything that could possibly offend someone, Idk.


You don't need a "right" to be offended. I hope other people get offended on my behalf when tribal societies are shown as nature worshipers in tune with their spirit folk as they drink fire water and chuck spears at white devils.
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Michael S
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Mokujinn wrote:
reckoner wrote:
Mokujinn wrote:
pkreynolds wrote:
Maybe the OP isn't trying to "have his thought process validated." Maybe it's an attempt to inform people of a cultural sensitivity that they may not have been aware of. One person being offended by something doesn't have to have an effect on anyone else. Why is it such an problem? If you don't like seeing threads like this, don't read them. It's not as if it's some kind of Herculean chore to scroll past them.


And I tried to scroll past them but the three of the top four threads are people complaining about something related to Asian culture and this game.....

edit: whoops make that 4 of top 5



And there is nothing wrong with that...

I have seen complaints on BGG about how religious things are handled in a game, gore, nazis, war in general, sexual content in games and I could go on.

I usually stop and read them, get another persons perspective and then move on. Thats what its all about really, we are all a bunch of different people who love this hobby we all come to it from different background and life experiences. We dont have to agree but everyone is entitled to feel however they want.


Okay so there should be nothing wrong with me complaining about all the complaining then dude. Try to see it from my perspective. I get where you're coming from and trying to tell me to chill but listen to me.

My main complaint is people, who are not Japanese, offended about the Japanese portrayal. Why are people offended FOR my culture? I showed my mom this game and she thought it was lame, because board game lol, but not once said a single thing about portrayal of the Japanese culture. That's a 50+ year old Japanese woman, why are people getting offended about Japanese culture, that have no right to be???? Or are we just offended at everything that could possibly offend someone, Idk.




Im glad your mom doesnt find the game offensive maybe you will be able to talk her into playing a game when it arrives

First I will say in no way shape or form was I telling you to "chill" not sure how you got that but wanted to be clear.

I also think you might be missing the point here. The concern isnt Japanese people being offended by the portrayal of their culture (although I can see that happening as well) but more, the people who were affected by the results of the events tied to the symbology used (just a few examples Koreans, Chinese etc).

Also anyone has the right to be offended by anything that offends them. You dont have to be tied to the specific group of people being offended. There arent requirements, you dont have to be _______ to be offended by _______. There are plenty of things that bother me from history that Im not directly tied to by race or religion etc.


Hope that clears things up : )

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Justen Brown
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ras2124 wrote:
Probably also worth mentioning that CMON is not an American company. They are based in Singapore, which was occupied by Japan during WWII.


They're also a publicly traded company with a diverse band of employees, Singapore itself representing one of the most ethnically diverse nations where immigrants and outsiders aren't treated as minority groups. And we don't know how much the theme is CMON's as opposed to Lang's design.

My point being "They're Singapore so they can't be insensitive to Japanese" isn't an argument.
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