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Subject: Thoughts on Gameplay Video rss

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Kevin Ure
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I'll number my talking points for easy discussion...

(1) The tea ceremony at the beginning seemed pointless, although theoretically that choice of ally would become more meaningful once the board state gets more interesting, more on that later though

(2) Choice of mandate seems really important to your overall strategy. therefore the idea of drawing mandates concerns me. it could make a strong player unable to properly capitalize but it could also prevent a player in a bad position from trying to climb out. Seems like unneeded chance.

(3)I don't understand what the season cards are. are they the marketplace? does the entire deck enter the market?

(4)I'm also unclear on strongholds. It appears that you can build them literally anywhere, and the players didn't seem overly concerned about controlling their own strongholds. they also mentioned destroying them a few times but claimed they were incapable (later seasons maybe?)

(5) following up on my first point: I feel like the game has a lack of collaborative possibilities. All shown instances of teamwork outside of picking mutually beneficial mandates were just players giving out freebies, and there didn't seem to be any good reason for said handouts. in games like TI3 or Dead of Winter there can be such a thing as a mutually beneficial interaction (that isn't aggression against the lead player) because the players have different objectives; no such asymmetric victory seems to exist here, and this i have no idea why i would give away territory or coins. So what else can allies do together? (5a) it appears as though allies can add their strength together to defeat a foe, this could be useful for dog-piling the player with the most board control. (5b) however when they actually presented the opportunity to do this in the game the turtle clan just decided to fight instead. It didn't even break the alliance...What? (5c) it seems to me that the real reason to make an ally (other than squeezing more out of mandates) is to gain access to the betrayal card. betrayal was insane. Not only was it the only mandate that doesn't give the other players a chance to do something but it also allows for a massive shift in the game state because it seems like you can betray your ally by converting a 3rd player's units, which made no sense. So it seems that if you make an ally you should basically know the last card they are going to play is betrayal; every time; its simply too good.

(6) I really like the god system. When you deploy troops you have to choose between fighting for favor of the gods, or for control of the land itself. the choices this forces the players to make seems really compelling.

(7) When deploying shinto the players seemed to pick a province for them to start in, but then they always instantly teleported to the god boards, why? I have to assume its because there are some mechanics in the game that trigger on a unit entering a province, but if that's the case shoehorning shinto into complying by bouncing them off the board seems... un-elegant.

(8) I loved the fact that the loser in combat gets the money that was spent against them. This is an ingenious way to organically grow the game's economy as it progresses while fighting snowballing by giving the loser a chance to catch up later. 10/10

(9) I also really liked how the battles for the provinces happened in a random but known order. this both adds replay value and strategy. knowing the order before any fighting begins gives the player interesting decision of strategy in the bidding phase. e.g. You have three battles to do; do you spend most of your money on the first battle, throw the second, and use the money from losing the second to win the third? what if the second combatant realizes that can tries to pull punching in the second battle? is it better to spread out across all three battles? you might lose them all... choices choices

(10) come to think of it i don't remember the Daimyo units doing anything special. In blood rage the leaders were strong, cheap, and had access to crazy upgrades. here they just seemed like another bushi. I must be missing something

Conclusion
---------------
Overall i think there are some great ideas executed here, but the diplomatic mechanics/possibilities detailed above have me concerned for how the game actually plays. I can't wait to get my hands on the rulebook, but for now i think I'm feeling lukewarm at best, if not a bit turned off.

How does everyone else feel about what they saw?
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Roger Reisinger
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Interesting thoughts and honestly I couldnt get through the video. It was just really cheesey and weird. I'll wait for a more professional production.
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tom monaghan

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Some of the DiceTower members played it at a con. All of them at least liked it if not and some really liked it!!
 
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chifanpoe
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I made it through the video but was confused as well on how parts of the game worked and why they were doing certain actions when they did them. No clue what the season cards are for other than place holders for the gods figures and maybe bonus or special actions? (I also agree it was pretty cheesy and uncomfortably weird in certain parts)
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chifanpoe
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Ah yes, I remember watching that. If I am not mistaken Sam was a bit confused as to what was going on in some of it.
 
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Mark Iradian
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1) The tea ceremony is going to become more involved when the season cards are in play and everyone is spread out. There wasn't much of a discussion at the beginning since there isn't much to talk about. I'm sure Season 2's gameplay video there is going to a fair bit of talking especially with the Lotus clan betraying and the Turtle clan having the Oni of Skulls hostage.

2) I disagree. I love the idea of drafting your "actions" for the entire Season. It makes the game less sterile and you have to be concerned about the timing of your actions. The Lotus clan will cater to people who like "hate drafting"

3) The season cards are the "Market place" for all the virtues, enhancements, and monsters via training action. Think of it as buying "tech" for your clan.

4) Strongholds allow you to put your units on there. There might be some Season cards that give strongholds other functions (or maybe give it Force) and allow you to destroy them.

5) Betrayal cards CAN be used players who are not in an Alliance. It's actually a great tool for players who are "left out" of Alliances as well. The card doesn't say "you have to be an alliance to use it", it just says if you are an Alliance, it must be broken. So yes, a lone player can easily disrupt the state the board if they have little concern about honor.

6) Agreed

7) I think that's just one of the players "roleplaying" the Shinto. You could probably place them immediately on the god board, but the recruit action is a new member for each Stronghold, so they are probably just clarifying where the Shinto priest is coming from.

8) Agreed

9) Although not mentioned, behind the player screens you'll see on the right-hand side the bonus victory points for grabbing certain number of Provinces at the end of the season (hence why the tiles are used). If you plan on focusing on battles, you want to spread that money out and win multiple fights.

10) Behind the screen they show what each unit can do. Daimyo are immune to almost everything. They cannot be removed via Betrayal and other such effects.

I would like to see that I find this game to be far more elegant than Blood Rage. One of the major issues I had with Blood Rage, at least when introducing to a new group, is players will have a hard time grasping on what to do with the draft cards. I've seen games won by veteran players because the newbie players would not hate draft and pass all the "good" cards to the veteran players without realizing what a major mistake they made.

In Rising Sun, I love the open information the game provides. Even new players to Rising Sun could easily pick up on what each card does simply by looking at the market instead of being overwhelmed by the drafting in Blood Rage.



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Dude Dudeston
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To me the most interesting thing is that I'm pretty sure the figures they're using are the plastics, not resin.

At 10:38 you can see a lotus bushi with a bent spear, and at 19:20, you can see less definition in the dragonfly shintos' feathers.

They still look pretty good, but it's noticeable. I've never painted minis but I was planning to with this game. Curious how this will affect my ideas.
 
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Ubergeek
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Quite ostentatious and at times demure. It reflects the zeitgeist of our gaming genre and acquiesces to portray a morality beyond reproach. It was truly a frenetic journey beyond that portrayed by the mainstream media, perhaps even deserving of a Waltaward.
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Sami Viherranta
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I cant draw a good thing from the gameplay video. They werent taking it seriously, I mean the men were, but joking too much ruined the video for me atleast. I like the game as it is very strategy heavy and the diplomacy is intriguing, but the players in the video didnt give it the weight the decitions needed. I mean no need to take it seriously, but you arent really selling a goofygame either.
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Roger Reisinger
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Granmoe wrote:
I cant draw a good thing from the gameplay video. They werent taking it seriously, I mean the men were, but joking too much ruined the video for me atleast. I like the game as it is very strategy heavy and the diplomacy is intriguing, but the players in the video didnt give it the weight the decitions needed. I mean no need to take it seriously, but you arent really selling a goofygame either.


Ya, I think this is it. There was so much giggling and snickering in the video that I was left feeling were they laughing at us for watching this video, or laughing because the game is terrible and they need to entertain us somehow with this laurel and hardy bit... all I know is after about 3 minutes, and fast forwarding it several times, I just closed it and forgot about it. i definitely was left with the impression the game isn't a serious strategic or tactical game.

Im sure if the Dicetower crew or Rodney Smith get a review copy it'll go back on my radar.
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Greg Justice
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Walt Mulder wrote:
Quite ostentatious and at times demure. It reflects the zeitgeist of our gaming genre and acquiesces to portray a morality beyond reproach. It was truly a frenetic journey beyond that portrayed by the mainstream media, perhaps even deserving of a Waltaward.


My, my that was a mouthful. I agree, I think.
 
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StevenE Smooth Sailing...
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I'm beginning to think I just might be in this only for the minis...
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Jason Brown
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I miss Spencer. His gameplay videos for CMON were clear and informative and they've gone in the tank since he left.
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Patrick Reynolds
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I thought the video was fine. Yes, they didn't explain every last rule or maybe play as seriously as they could have, but it showed me enough of the game to know that I want it. I can get the full rules whenever they post the manual. I think this video was far superior to the one they did for The Others; I backed that game despite the video.
 
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Captain Peach
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MAJBrown22 wrote:
I miss Spencer. His gameplay videos for CMON were clear and informative and they've gone in the tank since he left.


I agree. And while I LOVE CMON as a company, I find Michael Shinall in his designs and videos to leave me wanting. His videos, just like Rum and Bones just lave me feeling irritated and angry. I am going to stay on Rising Sun as a backer in spite of the terrible Shinall video but this video did not showcase the game at all.
 
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Philipp Ottensamer
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Lowecore wrote:
Interesting thoughts and honestly I couldnt get through the video. It was just really cheesey and weird. I'll wait for a more professional production.


This.
 
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Colin Cherry
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I enjoyed the video for the most part. I felt that though they didn't do a rules explanation (something that I think is usually unhelpful anyway) the actual play gave me a better understanding of how the game functions. I'm pretty optimistic at this point, but always try to wait for a full game and/or rulebook before making purchasing decisions and this would be my first CMON kickstarter (and second kickstarter ever) at that.

For specifics, I personally enjoyed the tea ceremony, though it was over very quickly and seemed very rushed and stilted. I think it will foster more discussion in a real game. I also liked the combat mechanics - specifically the taking of hostages and the fact that it seemed like (at least under some circumstances) the other person got all of the money that you spent on the battle. I want to know more about the upgrade/monster cards and what winning a province does for you (since it doesn't seem to generate victory points directly) and I want to see what happens to hostages later on.

On the negative side, the performances are...not good. I think they want it to seem a bit over-the-top and kitchy but I don't think they go far enough there. It comes off as stilted and clunky and I think if they went full on into the kitchy-ness it would generate a better product. The alternative is a fully realized, serious gameplay version...but that doesn't seem to be the direction they want to go.
 
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Zachary Wong
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Walt Mulder wrote:
Quite ostentatious and at times demure. It reflects the zeitgeist of our gaming genre and acquiesces to portray a morality beyond reproach. It was truly a frenetic journey beyond that portrayed by the mainstream media, perhaps even deserving of a Waltaward.


This is exactly the video, just some fluff without any of the details that matter. I have high expectations for a game that costs $100+ hoping the rule book gives a better impression.
 
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King Maple
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It has surprised me that with the money they've been getting from all this, they haven't invested into the community itself. Rodney Smith could have done a nice overview about the game and Dice Tower would have been perfect for a playthrough video considering their tastes. Or even Secret Cabal that is about to jump more strongly to videos than they have so far.

This 'homemade' approach isn't giving so much confidence.
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Stan Sevcik
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DeathMaker900 wrote:
How does everyone else feel about what they saw?


Like many others, I could not force myself to watch the video beyond the 10 minutes mark. It was just too confusing and irritating, like I walked in on a blind double date where some people were trying too much and some were embarrassed.

So thanks for your write-up, it was more useful to me than the video. I'm going to hold off backing this until I see a better playthrough though.
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Vyacheslav Grachev
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it feels like that game lacks depth and strategic decisions.. but maybe it's just the not good gameplay video

i was so excited to back this, but now i decided to wait a little bit to watch another videos / review
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Ivans Ivanovs
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Quote:
(7) When deploying shinto the players seemed to pick a province for them to start in, but then they always instantly teleported to the god boards, why? I have to assume its because there are some mechanics in the game that trigger on a unit entering a province, but if that's the case shoehorning shinto into complying by bouncing them off the board seems... un-elegant.


Maybe, you are unable to play Shinto if you do not have Bushi/stronghold or other forces present in any of the regions (i.e. if you do not control or occupy any land)?
 
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Lukas Vitroler
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I agree on the quality of the video.
If this gameplay is going to be the only source of information during the kickstarter I cannot back this as I don't know how this game really works.
 
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Brian C
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I pretty sure the video was designed to show people having fun playing the game vs. optimal strategy....

It wasn't clear what was going on with the Ronin tokens. If you have some of them before a battle what do you do with them? What's the advantage of the Koi clan that could use money as Ronin (maybe they don't have to win the bid?)

Also, the clan that wasn't played (Bonsai) has an ability that says they can buy "resources" without spending coins. Unsure what "resources" are...
 
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Kevin Hann
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Propbuddha wrote:
I pretty sure the video was designed to show people having fun playing the game vs. optimal strategy....


I agree. Does CMON really think that the kind of people (like all of us in this thread) want to see a video with people laughing, goofing off, having light fun? Or should they show a video actually explaining the game so us strategy nerds know what the gameplay is like? Also I want to see a table full of real gamers playing the game. If i was hanging out with half the people in this video, I'd just break out a bottle of wine and play apples to apples.
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