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Subject: The Deep State rss

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Josh
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So, this is apparently a thing now. I just want to get it out of the way and ask, who here in RSP believes in some form of shadow government run by Obama or some secret cabal?
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When the main purveyors of the idea are themselves tinfoil-hat wearing loonies, then it makes sense.

I just love that rightwing news sources are using the term as though it's just another fact of life that we've all known for 100 years. "Oh, you know, the Deep State." Oh... that thing you just started talking about a month ago? That thing? Oh, okay.
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I had believed that the very rich had the ability to steer the course of the USA. The existence of Mr. President Donald Trump has forced me to choose betweeen reducing the power of any cabal or admiting that their game plan is utterly opaque to me.

Whilst I am confident that many groups are trying to control the direction of American society, I no longer believe that any one group has sufficient power to succeed in this uni-laterally.

Of course this provisional understanding is open to revision if a game plan that includes "Mr. President Donald Trump" becomes coherent.
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Trey Chambers
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Pinook wrote:
I had believed that the very rich had the ability to steer the course of the USA. The existence of Mr. President Donald Trump has forced me to choose betweeen reducing the power of any cabal or admiting that their game plan is utterly opaque to me.

Whilst I am confident that many groups are trying to control the direction of American society, I no longer believe that any one group has sufficient power to succeed in this uni-laterally.

Of course this provisional understanding is open to revision if a game plan that includes "Mr. President Donald Trump" becomes coherent.


The rich control the country, but both sides have their big donors and puppet masters.
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Born To Lose, Live To Win
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Do I think there is an entrenched bureaucracy that has continuity not tied to terms and term limits that is resistant to radical changes in the status quo? Yes. Do I think they are an anti-democratic secret society that will go to any lengths to undermine the government for their own nefarious aims? No.

I think they can be an effective check/balance against Administrations that are ushered into power with little competence in actually running government. Like any career field or specialty, they are experts in their respective fields. If an administration engages them, leverages their experience AND makes changes, the changes will happen more smoothly. If an administration comes in the door complaining that they don't know what they are doing, that the administration knows more than them and that heads are going to roll, then cooperation will be very difficult to achieve.

It's basic people skills really, any competent manager would know this. Trump is not known for his people skills, especially when it comes to people who are not his socioeconomic and cultural peers.
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"I had believed that the very rich had the ability to steer the course of the USA. The existence of Mr. President Donald Trump has forced me to choose betweeen reducing the power of any cabal or admiting that their game plan is utterly opaque to me.".

Trump is the Mule out of the foundation series sans the talent , physic ability or intelligence or charisma.
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Wendell
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The whole concept of the deep state actually originally refers to Turkey.

Now I just think it's being used as a pejorative/conspiracy theorist term by the Trumpistas to slur the intelligence community and other federal agencies. It's much easier to blame the "Obama holdovers"* in the "Deep State" when things go wrong than to possibly think your own incompetence is involved. Likewise, easier to think feds (and hell, judges, too) who are trying to do their jobs are "enemies from the Deep State" when they point out things that are inconvenient to the Bannon administration.

*Most of whom were also "Bush holdovers", by the way. In other words, career professionals.
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Daniel Kearns
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wifwendell wrote:
The whole concept of the deep state actually originally refers to Turkey.

Now I just think it's being used as a pejorative/conspiracy theorist term by the Trumpistas to slur the intelligence community and other federal agencies. It's much easier to blame the "Obama holdovers"* in the "Deep State" when things go wrong than to possibly think your own incompetence is involved. Likewise, easier to think feds (and hell, judges, too) who are trying to do their jobs are "enemies from the Deep State" when they point out things that are inconvenient to the Bannon administration.

*Most of whom were also "Bush holdovers", by the way. In other words, career professionals.


Well anyone who actually knows something about their job, i.e. "elite", is something we do not want in America. Bad! Sad!
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Eric "Shippy McShipperson" Mowrer
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The thing that allows the rich to control the country is the ignorant and the stupid. Continue to be blind to the hypocrisy and corruption of whichever party you support and they will continue to stay in control.

You should all be fighting for voting reform so that non-corrupt people have a chance to win any elections (or even be heard). This continues to not happen, because if there is one thing both parties agree on, it's that the political elite (substitute filthy rich if you like) and their donors deserve to run this country. Stop allowing yourselves to be pacified and distracted by red team vs. blue team politics.

The lesser of two evils game is a losing game. The house always wins.
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Andy Beaton
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This is old news to anyone who ever watched Yes Minister. The entrenched civil service has always had its own interests to safeguard, and it takes more than a Trump to bend an entire bureaucracy of Sir Humphreys to his will.
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Well, after energizing the racist base by blaming everything on Obama for eight years, it makes sense they'd like to continue with the practice into the future.

As far as it existing for real? Oh, hahahaha.
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There's a book by this name. I greatly enjoyed reading it.
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Why would only the most recent president be running it? If it's that recent a thing, how has t both gotten as powerful as claimed and stayed secret?
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Ed Bradley
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Why assume the president runs it and not the other way around?
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Steven Woodcock
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Heh......


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Jeff Brown
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ejmowrer wrote:
The thing that allows the rich to control the country is the ignorant and the stupid. Continue to be blind to the hypocrisy and corruption of whichever party you support and they will continue to stay in control.

You should all be fighting for voting reform so that non-corrupt people have a chance to win any elections (or even be heard). This continues to not happen, because if there is one thing both parties agree on, it's that the political elite (substitute filthy rich if you like) and their donors deserve to run this country. Stop allowing yourselves to be pacified and distracted by red team vs. blue team politics.

The lesser of two evils game is a losing game. The house always wins.


What kind of voting reforms do you feel will acheive this?
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Vic Lineal
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ejmowrer wrote:
The thing that allows the rich to control the country is the ignorant and the stupid. Continue to be blind to the hypocrisy and corruption of whichever party you support and they will continue to stay in control.


That sounds a bit like scapegoating to me. It's like corruption and hypocrisy, actual people who engage in corruption and hypocrisy, are inevitable, and the ones who are to blame are the "ignorant" and the "stupid", categories that sound more emotional than descriptive and that seem vague enough that any frustration can be projected on them.

It also makes it sound as if politics was essentially a moral problem, and there were a virtuous set of politicians with whom nobody should disagree; you should vote for the non-corrupt and honest even if what the non-corrupt and honest says is the opposite of what you want and would fuck you sorely.

Could we put some concrete social face to these terms? Who are the ignorant and the stupid? What do they look like? How much do they earn? Where do they live? What positions do they take? How about the non-corrupt who can't get elected under the current system? Who are they? What are they defending? What do they do?
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The Deep State has always been a thing. As in the idea of it has always been around. Who knows if Trump's accusations are true or not but Obama is the type of narcissist to stick around and try to "save" America. His commenting on the first travel ban and whatnot was extremely annoying but not surprising. The president is supposed to disappear after a new one is elected. Hopefully Former Pres O will do just that.

Hopefully Trump will man up and stop blaming Obama, but that's unlikely to happen. It riles up his base and pisses off the left, so why not? Trump's excuse will probs be that Obama blamed Bush for like 6 years.
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Very, very good article on this a few weeks ago.

https://www.thenation.com/article/what-is-the-deep-state/

"The problem with the phrase “deep state” is that it is used to suggest that dishonorable individuals are subverting the virtuous state for their private ambitions. A good Marxist, and even an intelligent liberal, however, knows that under capitalism, ambition is considered a virtue, not a vice, and that the whole point of government is to collectively organize subversion. What do you think the “pursuit of happiness” means? It’s this public virtue/private vice false opposition that makes so much of the “deep state” writing slide into, if not noxious Bilderberg anti-Semitism, then “we are a republic, not an empire” idiocy."
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Eric "Shippy McShipperson" Mowrer
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jeff brown wrote:
ejmowrer wrote:
The thing that allows the rich to control the country is the ignorant and the stupid. Continue to be blind to the hypocrisy and corruption of whichever party you support and they will continue to stay in control.

You should all be fighting for voting reform so that non-corrupt people have a chance to win any elections (or even be heard). This continues to not happen, because if there is one thing both parties agree on, it's that the political elite (substitute filthy rich if you like) and their donors deserve to run this country. Stop allowing yourselves to be pacified and distracted by red team vs. blue team politics.

The lesser of two evils game is a losing game. The house always wins.


What kind of voting reforms do you feel will acheive this?


There are a lot of things we can be doing better.

1) Campaign finance reform.
2) Instant runoff voting.
3) Proportional representation in congress (for example, if the Green Party gets 3% of the vote, they should have 3% of the seats). This could also be done at the state level if people want to preserve state's rights.
4) Remove RNC/DNC monopoly of national debates (within reason).
5) Split up President and VP election (as it is originally in the Constitution) would be interesting. Not sure what that would do for us, but I needed one more thing to make it 5.

I could probably think of some more if you give me time.

ejm
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Walt
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I've had my experiences, as most of us had, with career bureaucrats, deep state or deep corporation. It really doesn't matter much which. Especially government bureaucrats have made a safe choice: lifetime employment (rarer and rarer in the private sector), good benefits, but no chance of anything more than plodding advancement. A safe, safe choice.

Sure, a few are arrogant, but most are just trying to do their jobs. They picked safe: they don't want to make waves or take chances. In their area, they know the law better than anyone in Congress, much less Trump. If they were to violate the law, they would be unsafe; subject to discipline or discharge. So, when Trump asks for something illegal, they'll know it and they'll oppose it out of self-preservation; they'll also resist passively because that's safer. "That list of people to fire? The dog ate my homework. We had a computer crash."

The President doesn't get to make laws or budgets. That's Congress. So until those new laws or budgets get passed, the "deep state" is going to resist violating existing, in-force laws or budgets.

If the new laws or budgets endanger their jobs, naturally they'll resist them. Human nature, not anything evil (unless you want to count original sin).
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Eric "Shippy McShipperson" Mowrer
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And more importantly than all of that, stop with the red team / blue team politics. That is a people problem, not a system problem. Stop listening to the talking heads who make a living stiring the pot. Stop with the demonizing of every opinion that is different from your own. Stop excusing the faults of your party of choice and settling for hypocrisy and corruption.

I'll give you that Trump is an anomaly. I think it will be back to the normal levels of total dysfunction and toxic behavior when he's gone, which is already a big problem in and of itself.
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Jeff Brown
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ejmowrer wrote:
jeff brown wrote:
ejmowrer wrote:
The thing that allows the rich to control the country is the ignorant and the stupid. Continue to be blind to the hypocrisy and corruption of whichever party you support and they will continue to stay in control.

You should all be fighting for voting reform so that non-corrupt people have a chance to win any elections (or even be heard). This continues to not happen, because if there is one thing both parties agree on, it's that the political elite (substitute filthy rich if you like) and their donors deserve to run this country. Stop allowing yourselves to be pacified and distracted by red team vs. blue team politics.

The lesser of two evils game is a losing game. The house always wins.


What kind of voting reforms do you feel will acheive this?


There are a lot of things we can be doing better.

1) Campaign finance reform.
2) Instant runoff voting.
3) Proportional representation in congress (for example, if the Green Party gets 3% of the vote, they should have 3% of the seats). This could also be done at the state level if people want to preserve state's rights.
4) Remove RNC/DNC monopoly of national debates (within reason).
5) Split up President and VP election (as it is originally in the Constitution) would be interesting. Not sure what that would do for us, but I needed one more thing to make it 5.

I could probably think of some more if you give me time.

ejm


Okay, I don't have a problem with most of that although I don't think the split of the VP/ Pres election will accomplish anything.

I'm all for campaign finance reform, but what kind of reform will make it so that the rich don't rule elections. I just wonder what would actually be effective. Most of the time they find a way around the rules.

 
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Jeff Brown
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ejmowrer wrote:
And more importantly than all of that, stop with the red team / blue team politics. That is a people problem, not a system problem. Stop listening to the talking heads who make a living stiring the pot. Stop with the demonizing of every opinion that is different from your own. Stop excusing the faults of your party of choice and settling for hypocrisy and corruption.

I'll give you that Trump is an anomaly. I think it will be back to the normal levels of total dysfunction and toxic behavior when he's gone, which is already a big problem in and of itself.

Team politics is a problem with human nature. We tend to see our own group as superior then the other and we look for things to confirm that at every opportunity.

I'm not sure that Trump is an anomaly. In Book of Mormon terms I see it as a sign of the pride cycle coming to a head. I fear for a society who sees him as a rational choice. (I am aware that Clinton had major problems as well)
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