Recommend
4 
 Thumb up
 Hide
21 Posts

Fields of Arle» Forums » General

Subject: Read something disturbing about East Frisia rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Dennis de Vries
Netherlands
Deventer
flag msg tools
Ah, doctor, that aneasthetic is perfect!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'm not a German, but the Dutch built a lot of dikes as well and as far as I know, nobody alive was buried there deliberately (maybe by accident when building dikes).
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alex Nguyen
United States
Chantilly
Virginia
flag msg tools
designer
badge
6 out of 7 dwarfs are not Happy
Avatar
mbmbmb
Yikes, hope it's not true.

But it probably won't stop me playing the game anyways... maybe we're creating our own alternate non-buried dikes reality by playing.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Gilbertson
United States
Duluth
Minnesota
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb

... maybe a future mini expansion? devil shake
18 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dennis de Vries
Netherlands
Deventer
flag msg tools
Ah, doctor, that aneasthetic is perfect!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
And another thing: when someone would 'drown' in a peat moor, that person would be preserved different then when buried in the more traditional 'grounds'. Peat preserves hair, nails, clothes and softer tissues.

Maybe that's why they thought that there was something 'alive' in the moors and ground they used for the dikes?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Paris

Monforte de Lemos
LUGO
msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
To reassure the squeamish, such a custom would long have been dead and buried by the time-setting of this game.

6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
pansonic
United States
Louisiana
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
patrocles wrote:
To reassure the squeamish, such a custom would long have been dead and buried by the time-setting of this game.



I sure hope so, but still, this is some Game of Thrones material right there.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
pansonic
United States
Louisiana
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Grim Norsefury wrote:

... maybe a future mini expansion? devil shake


I hate myself for laughing at this, DD
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dennis de Vries
Netherlands
Deventer
flag msg tools
Ah, doctor, that aneasthetic is perfect!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Well, it's almost a Dutch game. We don't have 'Arle', but we have 'Frysia' (or in Dutch: Friesland, the 'main' Frysia! ). Frysia once (a very long time ago) stretched from the North of France to Denmark. The Dutch name for this game is 'Friesche Velden' which means 'Frysian Fields'. A much better name! .
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Paris

Monforte de Lemos
LUGO
msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Menghini wrote:
Well, it's almost a Dutch game. We don't have 'Arle', but we have 'Frysia' (or in Dutch: Friesland, the 'main' Frysia! ). Frysia once (a very long time ago) stretched from the North of France to Denmark. The Dutch name for this game is 'Friesche Velden' which means 'Frysian Fields'. A much better name! .


You're mistaking this game with Friedmann Friese's take on north germanic farming.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
JR
Canada
Victoria
British Columbia
flag msg tools
Memento ferrugo
badge
Memento ferrugo
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Menghini wrote:
And another thing: when someone would 'drown' in a peat moor, that person would be preserved different then when buried in the more traditional 'grounds'. Peat preserves hair, nails, clothes and softer tissues.

Maybe that's why they thought that there was something 'alive' in the moors and ground they used for the dikes?


For more on this, look up bog bodies on Wikipedia. Some interesting reading there.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
O R
Canada
Toronto
Ontario
flag msg tools
“Bugger this. I want a better world.”
badge
"Do not offend the Chair Leg of Truth; it is wise and terrible."
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
pansonic wrote:
Perhaps someone who speaks German could verify is this was the case, because I frankly found it sickening... :((

Even if that was true, what does it matter? How is it relevant to Field of Arle?

It's not like the game is glorifying ritual human sacrifice... It's not like playing Field of Arle means you condone burying humans alive. Hell, playing the Germans/Axis in Axis & Allies doesn't mean you condone genocide... Rising Sun, the new game by Eric Lang as seppuku in as a game mechanic, should we be sickened that he's encouraging suicide?

Seriously, this whole modern trend of scrutinizing everything until you find a reason to be offended is really tiresome... So you are offended: good for you, you are a shining beacon of morality, congrats. You are not going to bring back gypsy kidnapped little girls from centuries ago by spreading awareness on BGG about how a board game might have a theme that his historically related to potentially horrible stuff. The whole of history is littered with horrible stuff. Any game containing any national flag is sickening by that standard. There is nothing to be achieved here.

Anyway... Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm off to play cards against humanity.
  • [+] Dice rolls
pansonic
United States
Louisiana
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Lapsus wrote:
pansonic wrote:
Perhaps someone who speaks German could verify is this was the case, because I frankly found it sickening... (

Even if that was true, what does it matter? How is it relevant to Field of Arle?

It's not like the game is glorifying ritual human sacrifice... It's not like playing Field of Arle means you condone burying humans alive. Hell, playing the Germans/Axis in Axis & Allies doesn't mean you condone genocide... Rising Sun, the new game by Eric Lang as seppuku in as a game mechanic, should we be sickened that he's encouraging suicide?

Seriously, this whole modern trend of scrutinizing everything until you find a reason to be offended is really tiresome... So you are offended: good for you, you are a shining beacon of morality, congrats. You are not going to bring back gypsy kidnapped little girls from centuries ago by spreading awareness on BGG about how a board game might have a theme that his historically related to potentially horrible stuff. The whole of history is littered with horrible stuff. Any game containing any national flag is sickening by that standard. There is nothing to be achieved here.

Anyway... Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm off to play cards against humanity.


Look, I totally agree with you. I don't know how you came to that conclusion about me, though. Actually, I was not scrutinizing anything and definitely was not looking to be offended. Moreover, I don't understand this sort of behavior, too. Seriously, 99% of the time I do not even care about the theme or thematic elements. I've seen those threads where people are 'offended' when a game has this and that (you know what I'm talking about). I have never been offended by any game. I actually am not offended by Fields of Arle. It's just that I read it totally by accident and got sad, that's all, and if it turns out to be a hoax then great, if not - well, it is what it is. FoA is a great game, anyway.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Paris

Monforte de Lemos
LUGO
msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb


Even if he was offended what does it matter? How is it relevant to you?

It's not like writing a thread on the geek means he's actually in your home, in your face with an opinion about the world that is different to your own, God forbid. It's not like reading about how different people react to things differently is going to make your own way of thinking suddenly pop out of existence!

Seriously, this whole modern trend of scrutinising everything until you find a reason to be offended about someone being offended is really tiresome... So you are offended: good for you, you are a shining beacon of good old common sense. congrats. You are not going to make the whole world think like you just by writing an outraged response on the BGG. The whole of history is littered with different opinions on what we should be outraged about -- yours is just one small contribution. There is nothing to be achieved here.

Anyway... Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm off to play Outrage!
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
JR
Canada
Victoria
British Columbia
flag msg tools
Memento ferrugo
badge
Memento ferrugo
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Puerto Rico's theme approaches 1".
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mikko Saari
Finland
flag msg tools
http://www.lautapeliopas.fi/ - the best Finnish board game resource!
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Back to the topic – the only references to the German phrase online are this thread and the Russian Wikipedia page on East Friesland. So it doesn't really sound like a well-known historical fact to me... That Hanewald book is apparently a travel guide, and I suppose it doesn't contain citations; would be interesting to know Hanewald's source for the claim.

As it is, I think it's possible that it is true, but I wasn't able to find any references to it online, so I'm a bit doubtful. Another question is when this was done (if at all).

Japanese did have a similar practise called Hitobashira, which was practised until 16th century. I don't know how much of that was self sacrifice and how much burying people alive against their will.

I did find another reference to burying people alive in the Frisian dikes, but this was as a punishment for not doing ones share for repairing the dikes:

"Very severe laws were enforced to win the battle. No feuds were allowed once the dikes needed repairs. This so-called dike peace could not be broken. Anyone breaking it by fighting was sentenced to death. He who could not help at the dikes had to leave the country; he who would not help was put to death. In some parts any man refusing to do his share could be buried alive in the breach with a pole stuck through his body. "

Source: Dr J. van Veen: Dredge Drain Reclaim http://repository.tudelft.nl/islandora/object/uuid:a7fe541b-...
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nick West
Scotland
Colinton
Edinburgh
flag msg tools
"Only two things are infinite; the universe and human stupidity....
badge
....and I'm not certain about the universe." Albert Einstein
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Just you wait until one of the geeks here reads what's been said about gypsies! Always getting the blame for everything...

whistle
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ronald
Germany
Dresden
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I cannot comment if this is a hoax or not. But there is indeed something called "Bauopfer" which loosely translates to "a sacrifice that is made during the erection of a building to appease the spirits." This sacrifice could be anything from pottery, tools, animals or indeed humans. The Bauopfer was widespread across Europe in the medieval age so the sacrifice of humans during dike building sounds at least plausible.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mikko Saari
Finland
flag msg tools
http://www.lautapeliopas.fi/ - the best Finnish board game resource!
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
If there needs to be something alive inside the dike, I suppose some chickens or sheep would be the obvious choice.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dok Indigo
Germany
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
pansonic wrote:
Perhaps someone who speaks German could verify is this was the case, because I frankly found it sickening... (


A brief search let me find that foundation sacrifices are known in ancient times through medieval times and beyond in Europe and the Near East. It looks like there have been human sacrifices that got replaced by animal sacrifices which got replaced by non living things.

Whether those sacrifices were dead when burried or were burried alive can probably not been told by archeology.

From what I read only very few bodies were found in buildings. I suspect that usually there have been animal sacrifices and some crazy people did sacrifize humans.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
that Matt
United States
Ann Arbor
Michigan
flag msg tools
I'm a quitter. I come from a long line of quitters. It's amazing I'm here at all.
badge
I can feel bits of my brain falling away like wet cake.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Enough talk. Let's kill a human.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Florian Trabert
Germany
Düsseldorf (34 km south of Essen)
NRW
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
If you are interested in this topic, I suggest reading the novella "The rider on the white horse" ("Der Schimmelreiter") by Theodor Storm, which is considered to be one of the masterpieces of German literature in the late 19th century. The passage you quoted ("Es muss was Lebiges in der Deich.") has obviously been taken from this book. The plot of the novella, which is situated in the North-Frisia of the 18th century, is based on the conflicts of an enlightened dike reeve with the Frisian farmers adhering to their traditional ideas and values.

For those of you who understand German, here is the passage from the novella:

Zu Ende November, wo Sturm und Regen eingefallen waren, blieb nur noch hart am alten Deich die Schlucht zu schließen, auf deren Grund an der Nordseite das Meerwasser durch den Priel in den neuen Koog hineinschoß. Zu beiden Seiten standen die Wände des Deiches; der Abgrund zwischen ihnen mußte jetzt verschwinden. Ein trocken Sommerwetter hätte die Arbeit wohl erleichtert; aber auch so mußte sie getan werden, denn ein aufbrechender Sturm konnte das ganze Werk gefährden. Und Hauke setzte alles daran, um jetzt den Schluß herbeizuführen. Der Regen strömte, der Wind pfiff, aber seine hagere Gestalt auf dem feurigen Schimmel tauchte bald hier, bald dort aus den schwarzen Menschenmassen empor, die oben wie unten an der Nordseite des Deiches neben der Schlucht beschäftigt waren. Jetzt sah man ihn unten bei den Sturzkarren, die schon weither die Kleierde aus dem Vorlande holen mußten und von denen eben ein gedrängter Haufen bei dem Priele anlangte und seine Last dort abzuwerfen suchte. Durch das Geklatsch des Regens und das Brausen des Windes klangen von Zeit zu Zeit die scharfen Befehlsworte des Deichgrafen, der heute hier allein gebieten wollte; er rief die Karren nach den Nummern vor und wies die Drängenden zurück; ein »Halt!« schon von seinem Munde, dann ruhte unten die Arbeit; »Stroh! ein Fuder Stroh hinab!« rief er denen droben zu, und von einem der oben haltenden Fuder stürzte es auf den nassen Klei hinunter. Unten sprangen Männer dazwischen und zerrten es auseinander und schrien nach oben, sie nur nicht zu begraben. Und wieder kamen neue Karren, und Hauke war schon wieder oben und sah von seinem Schimmel in die Schlucht hinab und wie sie dort schaufelten und stürzten; dann warf er seine Augen nach dem Haff hinaus. Es wehte scharf, und er sah, wie mehr und mehr der Wassersaum am Deich hinaufklimmte und wie die Wellen sich noch höher hoben; er sah auch, wie die Leute trieften und kaum atmen konnten in der schweren Arbeit vor dem Winde, der ihnen die Luft am Munde abschnitt, und vor dem kalten Regen, der sie überströmte. »Ausgehalten, Leute! Ausgehalten!« schrie er zu ihnen hinab. »Nur einen Fuß noch höher; dann ist's genug für diese Flut!« Und durch alles Getöse des Wetters hörte man das Geräusch der Arbeiter; das Klatschen der hineingestürzten Kleimassen, das Rasseln der Karren und das Rauschen des von oben hinabgelassenen Strohes ging unaufhaltsam vorwärts; dazwischen war mitunter das Winseln eines gelben Hundes laut geworden, der frierend und wie verloren zwischen Menschen und Fuhrwerken herumgestoßen wurde; plötzlich aber scholl ein jammervoller Schrei des kleinen Tieres von unten aus der Schlucht herauf. Hauke blickte hinab; er hatte es von oben hinunterschleudern sehen; eine jähe Zornröte stieg ihm ins Gesicht. »Halt! Haltet ein!« schrie er zu den Karren hinunter; denn der nasse Klei wurde unaufhaltsam aufgeschüttet.

»Warum?« schrie eine rauhe Stimme von unten herauf; »doch um die elende Hundekreatur nicht?«

»Halt! sag ich«, schrie Hauke wieder; »bringt mir den Hund! Bei unserm Werke soll kein Frevel sein!«

Aber es rührte sich keine Hand; nur ein paar Spaten zähen Kleis flogen noch neben das schreiende Tier. Da gab er seinem Schimmel die Sporen, daß das Tier einen Schrei ausstieß, und stürmte den Deich hinab, und alles wich vor ihm zurück. »Den Hund!« schrie er; »ich will den Hund!«

Eine Hand schlug sanft auf seine Schulter, als wäre es die Hand des alten Jewe Manners; doch als er umsah, war es nur ein Freund des Alten. »Nehmt Euch in acht, Deichgraf!« raunte der ihm zu, »Ihr habt nicht Freunde unter diesen Leuten; laßt es mit dem Hunde gehen!«

Der Wind pfiff, der Regen klatschte; die Leute hatten die Spaten in den Grund gesteckt, einige sie fortgeworfen. Hauke neigte sich zu dem Alten. »Wollt ihr meinen Schimmel halten, Harke Jens?« frug er; und als jener noch kaum den Zügel in der Hand hatte, war Hauke schon in die Kluft gesprungen und hielt das kleine winselnde Tier in seinem Arm; und fast im selben Augenblick saß er auch wieder hoch im Sattel und sprengte auf den Deich zurück. Seine Augen flogen über die Männer, die bei den Wagen standen. »Wer war es?« rief er. »Wer hat die Kreatur hinabgeworfen?«

Einen Augenblick schwieg alles, denn aus dem hageren Gesicht des Deichgrafen sprühte der Zorn, und sie hatten abergläubische Furcht vor ihm. Da trat von einem Fuhrwerk ein stiernackiger Kerl vor ihn hin. »Ich tat es nicht, Deichgraf«, sagte er und biß von einer Rolle Kautabak ein Endchen ab, das er sich erst ruhig in den Mund schob; »aber der es tat, hat recht getan; soll Euer Deich sich halten, so muß was Lebiges hinein!«

– »Was Lebiges? Aus welchem Katechismus hast du das gelernt?«

»Aus keinem, Herr!« entgegnete der Kerl, und aus seiner Kehle stieß ein freches Lachen; »das haben unsere Großväter schon gewußt, die sich mit Euch im Christentum wohl messen durften! Ein Kind ist besser noch; wenn das nicht da ist, tut's auch ein Hund!«

»Schweig du mit deinen Heidenlehren«, schrie ihn Hauke an, »es stopfte besser, wenn man dich hineinwürfe.«

»Oho!« erscholl es; aus einem Dutzend Kehlen war der Laut gekommen, und der Deichgraf gewahrte ringsum grimmige Gesichter und geballte Fäuste; er sah wohl, daß das keine Freunde waren; der Gedanke an seinen Deich überfiel ihn wie ein Schrecken: was sollte werden, wenn jetzt alle ihre Spaten hinwürfen? – Und als er nun den Blick nach unten richtete, sah er wieder den Freund des alten Jewe Manners; der ging dort zwischen den Arbeitern, sprach zu dem und jenem, lachte hier einem zu, klopfte dort mit freundlichem Gesicht einem auf die Schulter, und einer nach dem anderen faßte wieder seinen Spaten; noch einige Augenblicke, und die Arbeit war wieder in vollem Gange. – Was wollte er denn noch? Der Priel mußte geschlossen werden, und den Hund barg er sicher genug in den Falten seines Mantels. Mit plötzlichem Entschluß wandte er seinen Schimmel gegen des nächsten Wagen. »Stroh auf die Kante!« rief er herrisch, und wie mechanisch gehorchte ihm der Fuhrknecht; bald rauschte es hinab in die Tiefe, und von allen Seiten regte es sich aufs neue und mit allen Armen.

Eine Stunde wurde noch so gearbeitet; es war nach sechs Uhr, und schon brach tiefe Dämmerung herein, der Regen hatte aufgehört, da rief Hauke die Aufseher an sein Pferd. »Morgen früh vier Uhr«, sagte er, »ist alles wieder auf dem Platz; der Mond wird noch am Himmel sein; da machen wir mit Gott den Schluß! Und dann noch eines!« rief er, als sie gehen wollten; »kennt ihr den Hund?«, und er nahm das zitternde Tier aus seinem Mantel.

Sie verneinten das; nur einer sagte: »Der hat sich taglang schon im Dorf herumgebettelt; der gehört gar keinem!«

»Dann ist er mein!« entgegnete der Deichgraf. »Vergesset nicht: morgen früh vier Uhr!« und ritt davon.
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.