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Subject: Rules pdf? rss

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Poland
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Are the rules anywhere to be found? I wanted to incorporate the new difficulty rules into ST...
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Ramon Ortiz
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To answer your question, no. The only way to get them is to buy the game, or for someone to loan the book to you.
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John Middleton
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GW does not post or sell pdfs of their boardgame rules.


That said, you can buy the game components minus the minis for super cheap on eBay if you have no interest in the minis.
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Poland
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Ok, thanks! So much for hoping that GW is becoming a normal company...
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John Middleton
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Not to be rude....


But apparently your intention is to incorporate new game rules into your old game without bothering to pay GW for either the rules or any other game components.


Why on Earth would they want to give you a free download access under those circumstances?


GW offers tons of free rules material on their site so that you can incorporate their new minis and units into games without having to buy a book. The difference is that they assume your are buying, or planning to buy, the associated models.


As far as other companies rules, well most games are dependent upon components that are not easily substituted or the rules are streamlined intro rules designed only to get you going.
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Poland
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DegenerateElite wrote:
Not to be rude....


But apparently your intention is too incorporate new game rules into your old game without bothering to pay GW for either the rules or any other game components.


Why on Earth would they want to give you a free download access under those circumstances?


GW offers tons of free rules material on their site so that you can incorporate their new minis and units into games without having to buy a book. The difference is that they assume your are buying, or planning to buy, the associated models.


As far as other companies rules, well most games are dependent upon components that are not easily substituted or the rules are streamlined intro rules designed only to get you going.

I don't know if your a boardgamer or you come from a miniature tabletop background, but GW is the only major company making boardgames, that I know of, that does not provide rules in pdf format. Everybody does, because it boost sales and is convenient for the customers. Many people read the rules before they buy a game, it gives you a feel for whether you'll like it or not. Plus both in the EU and the US it is impossible to copyright rules, so that's another reason why companies do not hide them. I own ST and whereas I am not going to buy this one (not because of GW, simply because it is not a coop) I am interested in how the system is evolving. Fortunately a kind soul has shared those rules with me. That said - GW has been a big part of my youth and I am genuinely sad that they, while changing, still keep a part of 1980s mentality.
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John Middleton
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I am both.


Wargames and boardgames provide the rules free online because they generally require all the other components in the box to be of any use.


Miniature games seldom post the full rules and army books online because then you can proxy all the minis and never buy anything from the company. Almost no mini game provides all the rules for free online. Look at BoltAction or Frostgrave or Antares or any of a hundred historical games.


Even companies like Mantic that post rules online, generally post only an abbreviated form to get you going.

GW themselves make the basic rules for AoS available and the warscrolls for their units, but not the scenarios and special rules.


Not making the rules available online for free is not a form of copyright protection. Rules MECHANICS cannot be protected. All the art, names, stories, layout, and fonts are copyrighted or trademarked.


That said, your intention here was to obtain the new game content without paying for it so that you could use it with your current game. Not to read them and see what was new. And you admit to having no intention of buying the new game.

You and whoever "helped" you are the reason GW has come down so hard on BGG and other sites. The early days of the internet had hundreds of sites devoted to GW games and sharing rules for free is what destroyed it all.

It's your mentality that is in error here, but have fun with your stolen intellectual property.
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Eduardo Ortiz
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DegenerateElite wrote:
I am both.


Wargames and boardgames provide the rules free online because they generally require all the other components in the box to be of any use.


Miniature games seldom post the full rules and army books online because then you can proxy all the minis and never buy anything from the company. Almost no mini game provides all the rules for free online. Look at BoltAction or Frostgrave or Antares or any of a hundred historical games.


Even companies like Mantic that post rules online, generally post only an abbreviated form to get you going.

GW themselves make the basic rules for AoS available and the warscrolls for their units, but not the scenarios and special rules.


Not making the rules available online for free is not a form of copyright protection. Rules MECHANICS cannot be protected. All the art, names, stories, layout, and fonts are copyrighted or trademarked.


That said, your intention here was to obtain the new game content without paying for it so that you could use it with your current game. Not to read them and see what was new. And you admit to having no intention of buying the new game.

You and whoever "helped" you are the reason GW has come down so hard on BGG and other sites. The early days of the internet had hundreds of sites devoted to GW games and sharing rules for free is what destroyed it all.

It's your mentality that is in error here, but have fun with your stolen intellectual property.


Relax, no one is stealing anything. All he wants is the updated rules for a game he already purchased. There's nothing wrong with wanting rules in a PDF format. Like he said, every other company does it. He's not asking for anything out of the ordinary. Stop trying to defend/justify the practices of a company that obviously needs to catch up with modern times.
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Poland
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DegenerateElite wrote:
I am both.


Wargames and boardgames provide the rules free online because they generally require all the other components in the box to be of any use.


Miniature games seldom post the full rules and army books online because then you can proxy all the minis and never buy anything from the company. Almost no mini game provides all the rules for free online. Look at BoltAction or Frostgrave or Antares or any of a hundred historical games.


Even companies like Mantic that post rules online, generally post only an abbreviated form to get you going.

GW themselves make the basic rules for AoS available and the warscrolls for their units, but not the scenarios and special rules.


Not making the rules available online for free is not a form of copyright protection. Rules MECHANICS cannot be protected. All the art, names, stories, layout, and fonts are copyrighted or trademarked.


That said, your intention here was to obtain the new game content without paying for it so that you could use it with your current game. Not to read them and see what was new. And you admit to having no intention of buying the new game.

You and whoever "helped" you are the reason GW has come down so hard on BGG and other sites. The early days of the internet had hundreds of sites devoted to GW games and sharing rules for free is what destroyed it all.

It's your mentality that is in error here, but have fun with your stolen intellectual property.

Even if I had a full copy of the rules, that would not be a stolen intellectual property, but to clarify - the only part I was interested in are the difficulty mechanics absent from ST but present in this set. It is 2 sentences of rules all, nothing more. And that is what another user shared with me, as we both stated before mechanics are not copywrited.
 
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Rathenau von Stahl
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I'll need to put my two cents in here too: the obvious solution to the problem would be to publish the rules of the game in, more or less, text only.

Now as for myself; I'm pissed that we don't get a pdf version of the rules with our purchase. It's a game for five players with only one rulebook after all and it's not practical to pass the book around when you have long since moved half a country away from each other and only get together every other week.

Needless to say, I have long since scanned the rules and send that to my friends but it's a pain in the backside.
 
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Kevin Outlaw
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edsounddesign wrote:


Relax, no one is stealing anything. All he wants is the updated rules for a game he already purchased. There's nothing wrong with wanting rules in a PDF format. Like he said, every other company does it. He's not asking for anything out of the ordinary. Stop trying to defend/justify the practices of a company that obviously needs to catch up with modern times.


The rules for Hammerhal aren't really updated rules for a game he already purchased. Sure, you can retcon them into Silver Tower (I recommend people do), but they are technically new rules for a standalone product.

Also, the rules for Hammerhal are part of an 80-page book that also contains a 30-page novella, lore, and a painting guide; so it's understandable GW wouldn't share that online.

I do think GW should publish a cut-down version of just the rules pages though. Without the gamemaster book, there isn't a massive amount you can do with them. But to say GW needs to "catch up with modern times" is a bit dismissive of the massive strides they have taken in recent years, including embracing social media, and giving rules for every single AoS unit for free online.
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Eduardo Ortiz
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RedMonkeyBoy wrote:
edsounddesign wrote:


Relax, no one is stealing anything. All he wants is the updated rules for a game he already purchased. There's nothing wrong with wanting rules in a PDF format. Like he said, every other company does it. He's not asking for anything out of the ordinary. Stop trying to defend/justify the practices of a company that obviously needs to catch up with modern times.


The rules for Hammerhal aren't really updated rules for a game he already purchased. Sure, you can retcon them into Silver Tower (I recommend people do), but they are technically new rules for a standalone product.

Also, the rules for Hammerhal are part of an 80-page book that also contains a 30-page novella, lore, and a painting guide; so it's understandable GW wouldn't share that online.

I do think GW should publish a cut-down version of just the rules pages though. Without the gamemaster book, there isn't a massive amount you can do with them. But to say GW needs to "catch up with modern times" is a bit dismissive of the massive strides they have taken in recent years, including embracing social media, and giving rules for every single AoS unit for free online.


I guess when pretty much everyone recommends updating the ST tower rules to some of the new rules from SOH, that to me seems like a straight up update of the system. And I get that GW is getting better, I do actually love their products, just wanted to say that there's nothing wrong with asking for the rules pdf, no one is trying to "steal" anything from GW. Hope they keep getting better and better!
 
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matthew mclaughlin
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When an expansion is released and everyone says "man, you've got to get this because it vastly improves the game", do you consider it an update that should be free? While I would like everything given to me for free, I can't really blame a games company for expecting people to, you know, pay for things.

Take Shadows of Brimstone for example - Flying Frog released two core sets at the beginning, and each core set had different hero characters and monsters in them. They didn't give those rules/stats for free - you had to buy the other core set. No one was complaining about that.

GW, on the other hand, has given us a vast library of hero characters for free. That's pretty awesome.
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Eduardo Ortiz
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locustofdeath wrote:
When an expansion is released and everyone says "man, you've got to get this because it vastly improves the game", do you consider it an update that should be free? While I would like everything given to me for free, I can't really blame a games company for expecting people to, you know, pay for things.

Take Shadows of Brimstone for example - Flying Frog released two core sets at the beginning, and each core set had different hero characters and monsters in them. They didn't give those rules/stats for free - you had to buy the other core set. No one was complaining about that.

GW, on the other hand, has given us a vast library of hero characters for free. That's pretty awesome.


Oh excuse me, I thought this thread was about wanting a pdf version of the new rules, not about wanting the whole expansion for free. I guess I must have misunderstood. You're way over the line there, OP! Nothing in life is free!

And where are these "free" heroes you're talking about? I would sure like to have them.

 
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John Middleton
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When you have to type a long explanation for your "right" or justification to take some action....


....then that action is probably questionable or illegal.




GW does not make their rules available for free download.

Circumventing that so that you CAN USE the new rules without paying for them is STEALING.


I'm always amazed at how people love to justify and rationalize theft.


Just because the local store doesn't have a copy of the new movie you want doesn't justify you torrenting it from Pirate Bay.
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matthew mclaughlin
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The rules are a part of the SOHH game - a game that is completely stand alone and separate from ST, though compatible.

I'm not sure why you or anyone expect to be given them for free by GW, when that could possibly compromise their sales.

I used Flying Frog's Shadows of Brimstone as example to show you that GW is not alone in doing this. Descent is another example - lots of expansions with lots of new rules for the core set, none available for free.

(and I apologize, I meant a vast library of heroes for cheap - i.e. the app - I typed "free" by accident; the app has a lot of heroes stats available for WHQ players, unlike SoB, where you HAVE to buy the actual sets to get the character stats)
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Eduardo Ortiz
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DegenerateElite wrote:
When you have to type a long explanation for your "right" or justification to take some action....


....then that action is probably questionable or illegal.



I guess by that logic everyone who has ever been defended in court is guilty of something... I mean they did have to explain their position to a jury and everything... and it was probably a long explanation... why are they explaining so much... They must be guilty! Innocence is always self evident and obvious! Burn them!
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John Middleton
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edsounddesign wrote:
DegenerateElite wrote:
When you have to type a long explanation for your "right" or justification to take some action....


....then that action is probably questionable or illegal.



I guess by that logic everyone who has ever been defended in court is guilty of something... I mean they did have to explain their position to a jury and everything... and it was probably a long explanation... why are they explaining so much... They must be guilty! Innocence is always self evident and obvious! Burn them!



Baring exceptional circumstance, you are probably in court because you did something wrong. If you need a huge explanation to uphold your innocence then your are likely relying on obfuscation to confuse the matter. Regardless, you example is totally pointless in this conversation.


In this case, the OP admitted to wanting to use rules he didn't want to pay for.

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Eduardo Ortiz
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DegenerateElite wrote:
edsounddesign wrote:
DegenerateElite wrote:
When you have to type a long explanation for your "right" or justification to take some action....


....then that action is probably questionable or illegal.



I guess by that logic everyone who has ever been defended in court is guilty of something... I mean they did have to explain their position to a jury and everything... and it was probably a long explanation... why are they explaining so much... They must be guilty! Innocence is always self evident and obvious! Burn them!



Baring exceptional circumstance, you are probably in court because you did something wrong. If you need a huge explanation to uphold your innocence then your are likely relying on obfuscation to confuse the matter. Regardless, you example is totally pointless in this conversation.


In this case, the OP admitted to wanting to use rules he didn't want to pay for.



Yeah, that whole "innocent until proven guilty" thing is an antiquated point of view anyways. I'm starting to like your "guilty by default" point of view, very much in tune with modern times... if you know what I mean.
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John Middleton
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He said he was guilty right from the start.


But keep spewing your off topic crap.


Typical of modern commenters.

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For those with a more rational arguments about the story in the rulebook - that's a good point, but solveable very easily, look at what FFG does for Descent - they publish the rules but not quests and any other materials like that.

DegenerateElite wrote:
When you have to type a long explanation for your "right" or justification to take some action....


....then that action is probably questionable or illegal.




GW does not make their rules available for free download.

Circumventing that so that you CAN USE the new rules without paying for them is STEALING.


I'm always amazed at how people love to justify and rationalize theft.


Just because the local store doesn't have a copy of the new movie you want doesn't justify you torrenting it from Pirate Bay.

You're being just silly here, and blind to the fact that 99% of the industry does publish the rules for the games. Not to mention a lack of understanding of what a game is - it is not only the rules, that's why most of us buy the games instead of just using PnP. Calling is theft is just stupid. The same with illegal. Anybody can make and publish a game using exact WHQ rules and that would be 100% legal (although maybe not ethical, but that's a different matter).

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John Middleton
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borsook wrote:
For those with a more rational arguments about the story in the rulebook - that's a good point, but solveable very easily, look at what FFG does for Descent - they publish the rules but not quests and any other materials like that.

DegenerateElite wrote:
When you have to type a long explanation for your "right" or justification to take some action....


....then that action is probably questionable or illegal.




GW does not make their rules available for free download.

Circumventing that so that you CAN USE the new rules without paying for them is STEALING.


I'm always amazed at how people love to justify and rationalize theft.


Just because the local store doesn't have a copy of the new movie you want doesn't justify you torrenting it from Pirate Bay.

You're being just silly here, and blind to the fact that 99% of the industry does publish the rules for the games. Not to mention a lack of understanding of what a game is - it is not only the rules, that's why most of us buy the games instead of just using PnP. Calling is theft is just stupid. The same with illegal. Anybody can make and publish a game using exact WHQ rules and that would be 100% legal (although maybe not ethical, but that's a different matter).



99% of the miniature game industry does not provide their rules for free.

The game components, rulebook included, is exactly what GW want you to pay for.

If GW chooses to charge for their rulebook and you choose to ignore that by requesting a copy of it, or some part of it, without remuneration to GW, what exactly is that called?

And you cannot just use an exact copy of the rules. You can use the actual mathematical basis from them and their probabilities, ie the underlying mechanics. You cannot use the same wording or specific terms from the rules.

Your grasp on copyright, intellectual property, and trademark is flawed.

But this conversation is pointless.

People who feel that stealing intellectual property is their "right", will go on and on to justify their "right" to do whatever they want.

Have fun.
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