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Subject: Game overview - what we know so far. rss

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Jesse Marzel
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So, someone in another thread said he didn't understand how the game works. Since the video was unpleasant to watch and there's alot of conflicting data, I thought it would be nice to post a general outline of the game. I'll try to update this as more information is reveled, and remember that everything is still subject to balancing and future changes. Here's the general game overview I was able to surmise form the previews, the video, and information on the kickstarter page.

So, each gave is played over 3 seasons, with each season broken down into 3 phases - the Tea Ceremony, where alliances are formed, the Political Phase, where players maneuver on the board and gain resources, and the War Phase, where the board is solved. This is very similar to the turn structure seen in one of Erik Lang's earlier games, Chaos in the Old World, but also offers much room for for negotiation and talk.

At the beginning, each player selects a clan and gets a political/war two-sided board, 1 Daimyo, 3 Shinto, 6 Bushi and an amount of gold coins indicated on his clan screen. 4 gods/Kami (out of 7?) are chosen and placed on the mountains, and each player places his starting forces on a zone associated with his clan. The start player is placed at the top of the honor track, which each player after him lower in seating order, and the game starts.

Before each season start players draw X season cards and mark Y zones as contested war zones; after that, comes the tea ceremony. At the Tea ceremony, all alliances are negotiated and renegotiated. You can give gold at any time to anyone, and this is the only time you can make an alliance - braking an alliance is also possible on the tea ceremony and will not cause you to lose honor, unlike the Betray action during the game. This is similar to the way alliances work in the game Rex, but with set times where alliances can be created and without having to relay on chance for it. The video doesn't show this, but there is much room for negotiations at this point - allying with someone doesn't mean you can win together, but it does give alot of benefits - it doubles the amount of alliance level mandates you can take, and some cards relay on it.

After the Tea Ceremony starts the Political Phase. In this phase, each player in turn draws 4 mandate cards from a shared deck of 10 cards (two copies of each) chooses one and plays it; when played, all players get to take the action it denotes, but the active player and his ally get to do an extra thing. There are 4 mandates, as well as a betrayal action: Marshal lets players move units, and the active alliance gets to also buy fortresses, anywhere on the board; Recruit lets everyone place new units on fortresses, and the active alliance gets to place one more unit; Train lets everyone buy a season card (clan upgrade or monster), with a discount for the active alliance; And Harvest causes everyone to gain a coin, with the active alliance gaining the benefits of areas they control (areas where they have the most strength, ties solves by Honor). You can also play a Betray mandate (if you draw one), which brakes alliances, causes you to lose honor if you were in one, and replace two figures from two different players on the board with your own.

After playing the 3rd, 5th, and 7th mandate card, all players gain the gifts of the Kami, based on area majority on the mountains - when recruiting, each player can recruit Shinto priests, which can be used as units in battle, but can also be sent to the mountains to gain the favors of the gods; Kami are solved in sequential order with ties broken by honor, and each gives a different benefit.

After the 7th mandate card was played and the 3rd Kami worship solved, the Political Phase is over and the War Phase starts; this is where the board is "solved" and all battle happen. At this turn, each pre-selected area is fought over in order, with the winner taking the zone token for an unknown future reward. Before each battle, all participating players bid for 4 different combat bonuses: Seppuku allows a player to kill all of his own units and gain VP and honor for each; Take Hostage allows a player to take one unit as a hostage, which later drains VP and gold from the owner; Hire Ronin allows a player to add strength to his forces based on the amount of ronin tokens he owns; and Imperial Poets allow a player to get VP for all units lost in this battle, even those of the other players. Each bonus is won by a the highest bidder, with ties broken by honor, and after solving bonuses sequentially (So Seppuku happens before Take Hostage, and leaves no one to be taken hostage) players compare strength, the highest strength wins and all other units are wiped from the board - the losers discard their bids, and the winner distributes the money he bid between the losers. After winning a combat in a war zone, the winner takes its token, and combat starts over on the next designated war zone - this goes on until all fights are resolved.

After the War Phase ends, the season is over and another one starts. After 3 seasons winter comes, and all players gain extra VP from combat tokens won and certain 3rd season upgrades, highest VP wins the game.

Edit 9/3/2017 - updated that winner's bid go to the losers.
Edit 2 9/3/2017 - updated with more details.
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Jesse Marzel
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I also wanted to note all the little negotiation points available at the game, since they didn't really negotiate in the video.

- The Tea Ceramnoy is the most obvious one - you can negotiate alliances, but there are so many factors that lead to a good alliance that are just glossed over in the video. The first is turn order; since each season sees only 7 mandate cards, some players will get less actions; allying with someone who has more actions will give greater benefit, and the alliance that has 4 actions will do better than the alliance that only has 3. Also, an alliance that can do the two last actions of the turn sequentially can change the board state significantly and set themselves up for great war phase - but there's also grater risk for betrayal at the end stages of a season, as there's less to gain from an alliance at that point and a higher chance of drawing a betrayal card.

- Choosing Mandates is another negotiation hotspot, as all players gain from an action - and getting the right action at the right time can have great repressions; if you are the 4th player, getting the 3rd player to recruit might mean the difference between winning the favors of the Kami and gaining nothing from them. Also, you can trade gold and promises for future mandates at this point to get other players to do what you need, and in return do what they need.

- The area majority on the Kami track is another negotiation spot; you can bribe someone to take a spot other than yours and stop a cascade that hurts you - for instance, in the video, Turtle took the honor Kami, which allowed her to win a tie against Firefly later on; Firefly could have bribed Lotus to take that Kami, which would benefit them both.

- Last is the bid before the combat. Since all bids are lost, both sides with to conserve as much gold as they can, which can lead to alot of interesting negotiation over combat; you can offer someone an easy and cheap victory by doing Seppuku/Poets, and both of you gain from combat with minimal costs.

So, while this isn't shown in the video, there are actually alot of reasons to negotiate over many things in the game, leading to a very political game.
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Jon Snow
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laugh Some very nice detective work! I note that on the Kickstarter discussion itself, the CMON rep says next week they will start to post the rules section by section. So it won't be long until they are revealed.
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JoeNothin wrote:
- Last is the bid before the combat. Since all bids are lost, both sides wish to conserve as much gold as they can, which can lead to alot of interesting negotiation over combat; you can offer someone an easy and cheap victory by doing Seppuku/Poets, and both of you gain from combat with minimal costs.

This does not seem correct. At least judging from the gameplay video only the loosers bids are lost, while the winners bid is distributed to the loosers.

JoeNothin wrote:
The start player is placed at the top of the honor track, which each player after him lower in seating order, and the game starts.

I am not sure about this. Starting Honor is apparently determined by what Clan you play.
Source: Trailer video where you can see the back of the player screen. Starting Honor is listed on the top left side.

Extra Information
- The Daimyo is immune to Hostage, Betrayal and other effects (source: back of the player screen), so he can only be removed through losing war.
- Players can apparently recruit two monsters (deduction: The game comes with 40 counter bases. 20 of these are used for the 1 Daimyo and 3 Shintos of each of the 5 clans = 20 counter bases. Which leaves 4 counter bases, 2 large and 2 small, for each clan. Edit: Scratch that. They are including more counter bases now, so that no longer adds up.
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Jesse Marzel
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Bewulf wrote:
JoeNothin wrote:
- Last is the bid before the combat. Since all bids are lost, both sides wish to conserve as much gold as they can, which can lead to alot of interesting negotiation over combat; you can offer someone an easy and cheap victory by doing Seppuku/Poets, and both of you gain from combat with minimal costs.

This does not seem correct. At least judging from the gameplay video only the loosers bids are lost, while the winners bid is distributed to the loosers.


Yes, you are correct; I've updated the post.

This makes the negotiation and backstabbing aspects of combat bids even more interesting, as the loser always has something to gain, and the winner wants to spend even less, since it gives resources to his enemies. Very cool.

I also wonder how this works for the Koi clan - do they give our ronin?
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Mark Iradian
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I find the losing to gain the money very interesting considering the turn order of the battles.

You could intentionally send your troops to obvious losing battles (even just one guy), don't even bid, just to get enough gold to win more crucial battles.

Of course I doubt this is a "dominant" strategy because you need to spend political mandates to recruit those guys back, but that is one way to screw with other players and gain coins.
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Mark Iradian
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And out of all the luck, the very thing I was talking about becomes the Fox Clan Kickstarter Exclusive.
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Fel Barros
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JoeNothin wrote:
So, someone in another thread said he didn't understand how the game works. Since the video was unpleasant to watch and there's alot of conflicting data, I thought it would be nice to post a general outline of the game. I'll try to update this as more information is reveled, and remember that everything is still subject to balancing and future changes. Here's the general game overview I was able to surmise form the previews, the video, and information on the kickstarter page.

So, each gave is played over 3 seasons, with each season broken down into 3 phases - the Tea Ceremony, where alliances are formed, the Political Phase, where players maneuver on the board and gain resources, and the War Phase, where the board is solved. This is very similar to the turn structure seen in one of Erik Lang's earlier games, Chaos in the Old World, but also offers much room for for negotiation and talk.

At the beginning, each player selects a clan and gets a political/war two-sided board, 1 Daimyo, 3 Shinto, 6 Bushi and an unknown amount of gold coins. 4 gods/Kami (out of 7?) are chosen and placed on the mountains, and each player places his starting forces on a zone associated with his clan. The start player is placed at the top of the honor track, which each player after him lower in seating order, and the game starts.

The seasonal income (money given/reset every season is determined by the clans. Each clan has their own income )

Before each season start players draw X season cards and mark Y zones as contested war zones; after that, comes the tea ceremony. At the Tea ceremony, all alliances are negotiated and renegotiated. You can give gold at any time to anyone, and this is the only time you can make an alliance - braking an alliance is also possiable on the tea ceremony and will not cause you to lose honor, unlike the Betray action during the game. This is similar to the way alliances work in the game Rex, but with set times where alliances can be created and without having to relay on chance for it. The video doesn't show this, but there is much room for negotiations at this point - allying with someone doesn't mean you can win together, but it does give alot of benefits - it doubles the amount of alliance level mandates you can take, and some cards relay on it.

After the Tea Ceremony starts the Political Phase. In this phase, each player in turn draws 4 mandate cards from a shared deck of 10 cards (two copies of each) chooses one and plays it; when played, all players get to take the action it denotes, but the active player and his ally get to do an extra thing. There are 4 mandates, as well as a betrayal action: Marshal lets players move units, and the active alliance gets to also buy fortresses, anywhere on the board; Recruit lets everyone place new units on fortresses, and the active alliance gets to place one more unit; Train lets everyone buy a season card (clan upgrade or monster), with a discount for the active alliance; And Harvest causes everyone to gain a coin, with the active alliance gaining the benefits of areas they control (areas where they have the most strength or where they have a Daimyo, ties solves by Honor). You can also play a Betray mandate (if you draw one), which brakes alliances, causes you to lose honor if you were in one, and replace two figures from two different players on the board with your own.

the daimyo bit was removed from harvest


After playing the 3rd, 5th, and 7th mandate card, all players gain the gifts of the Kami, based on area majority on the mountains - when recruiting, each player can recruit Shinto priests, which can be used as units in battle, but can also be sent to the mountains to gain the favors of the gods; Kami are solved in sequential order with ties broken by honor, and each gives a different benefit.

After the 7th mandate card was played and the 3rd Kami worship solved, the Political Phase is over and the War Phase starts; this is where the board is "solved" and all battle happen. At this turn, each pre-selected area is fought over in order, with the winner taking the zone token for an unknown future reward. Before each battle, all participating players bid for 4 different combat bonuses: Seppuku allows a player to kill all of his own units and gain VP and honor for each; Take Hostage allows a player to take one unit as a hostage, for an unknown reward; Hire Ronin allows a player to add strength to his forces based on the amount of ronin tokens he owns; and Imperial Poets allow a player to get VP for each unit lost in this battle. Each bonus is won by a the highest bidder, with ties broken by honor, and after solving bonuses sequentially (So Seppuku happens before Take Hostage, and leaves no one to be taken hostage) players compare strength, the highest strength wins and all other units are wiped from the board - the losers discard thier bids, and the winner distributes the money he bid between the losers. After winning a combat in a war zone, the winner takes its token, and combat starts over on the next designated war zone - this goes on until all fights are resolved.

take hostage lets you "drain a vp" and you return to owner for gold next season, Imperial poets awards vps for all units killed regardless of owner.

After the War Phase ends, the season is over and another one starts. After 3 seasons winter comes, and all players gain extra VP from different unknown at this time sources, highest VP wins the game.

Controlling different provinces awards you bonus vps and autumn cards gives vps as well.

Edit 9/3/2017 - updated that winner's bid go to the losers.


I'm impressed

You nailed most of the gameplay!

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Gavin Kenny
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Base game monsters will be per season ...

Spring - Oni of Skulls, Komainu
Summer - Oni of Blood, Oni of Souls, Yurei
Autumn - River Dragon, Oni of Spite, Oni of Hate
 
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Quote:
Since the video was unpleasant to watch ...


I disagree. I got a nice snooze in while watching the video.
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Ignazio Corrao
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gavken wrote:
Base game monsters will be per season ...

Spring - Oni of Skulls, Komainu
Summer - Oni of Blood, Oni of Souls, Yurei
Autumn - River Dragon, Oni of Spite, Oni of Hate

All the Extras monsters are either for Spring or Summer (although we don't know the Phoenix yet).

And assuming that Autumn monsters are the largest (at least judging from the base ones), there may still be some large figures reserved for the last stretch goals.


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Jesse Marzel
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FakeDutch wrote:
JoeNothin wrote:
So, someone in another thread said he didn't understand how the game works. Since the video was unpleasant to watch and there's alot of conflicting data, I thought it would be nice to post a general outline of the game. I'll try to update this as more information is reveled, and remember that everything is still subject to balancing and future changes. Here's the general game overview I was able to surmise form the previews, the video, and information on the kickstarter page.

So, each gave is played over 3 seasons, with each season broken down into 3 phases - the Tea Ceremony, where alliances are formed, the Political Phase, where players maneuver on the board and gain resources, and the War Phase, where the board is solved. This is very similar to the turn structure seen in one of Erik Lang's earlier games, Chaos in the Old World, but also offers much room for for negotiation and talk.

At the beginning, each player selects a clan and gets a political/war two-sided board, 1 Daimyo, 3 Shinto, 6 Bushi and an unknown amount of gold coins. 4 gods/Kami (out of 7?) are chosen and placed on the mountains, and each player places his starting forces on a zone associated with his clan. The start player is placed at the top of the honor track, which each player after him lower in seating order, and the game starts.

The seasonal income (money given/reset every season is determined by the clans. Each clan has their own income )

Before each season start players draw X season cards and mark Y zones as contested war zones; after that, comes the tea ceremony. At the Tea ceremony, all alliances are negotiated and renegotiated. You can give gold at any time to anyone, and this is the only time you can make an alliance - braking an alliance is also possiable on the tea ceremony and will not cause you to lose honor, unlike the Betray action during the game. This is similar to the way alliances work in the game Rex, but with set times where alliances can be created and without having to relay on chance for it. The video doesn't show this, but there is much room for negotiations at this point - allying with someone doesn't mean you can win together, but it does give alot of benefits - it doubles the amount of alliance level mandates you can take, and some cards relay on it.

After the Tea Ceremony starts the Political Phase. In this phase, each player in turn draws 4 mandate cards from a shared deck of 10 cards (two copies of each) chooses one and plays it; when played, all players get to take the action it denotes, but the active player and his ally get to do an extra thing. There are 4 mandates, as well as a betrayal action: Marshal lets players move units, and the active alliance gets to also buy fortresses, anywhere on the board; Recruit lets everyone place new units on fortresses, and the active alliance gets to place one more unit; Train lets everyone buy a season card (clan upgrade or monster), with a discount for the active alliance; And Harvest causes everyone to gain a coin, with the active alliance gaining the benefits of areas they control (areas where they have the most strength or where they have a Daimyo, ties solves by Honor). You can also play a Betray mandate (if you draw one), which brakes alliances, causes you to lose honor if you were in one, and replace two figures from two different players on the board with your own.

the daimyo bit was removed from harvest


After playing the 3rd, 5th, and 7th mandate card, all players gain the gifts of the Kami, based on area majority on the mountains - when recruiting, each player can recruit Shinto priests, which can be used as units in battle, but can also be sent to the mountains to gain the favors of the gods; Kami are solved in sequential order with ties broken by honor, and each gives a different benefit.

After the 7th mandate card was played and the 3rd Kami worship solved, the Political Phase is over and the War Phase starts; this is where the board is "solved" and all battle happen. At this turn, each pre-selected area is fought over in order, with the winner taking the zone token for an unknown future reward. Before each battle, all participating players bid for 4 different combat bonuses: Seppuku allows a player to kill all of his own units and gain VP and honor for each; Take Hostage allows a player to take one unit as a hostage, for an unknown reward; Hire Ronin allows a player to add strength to his forces based on the amount of ronin tokens he owns; and Imperial Poets allow a player to get VP for each unit lost in this battle. Each bonus is won by a the highest bidder, with ties broken by honor, and after solving bonuses sequentially (So Seppuku happens before Take Hostage, and leaves no one to be taken hostage) players compare strength, the highest strength wins and all other units are wiped from the board - the losers discard thier bids, and the winner distributes the money he bid between the losers. After winning a combat in a war zone, the winner takes its token, and combat starts over on the next designated war zone - this goes on until all fights are resolved.

take hostage lets you "drain a vp" and you return to owner for gold next season, Imperial poets awards vps for all units killed regardless of owner.

After the War Phase ends, the season is over and another one starts. After 3 seasons winter comes, and all players gain extra VP from different unknown at this time sources, highest VP wins the game.

Controlling different provinces awards you bonus vps and autumn cards gives vps as well.

Edit 9/3/2017 - updated that winner's bid go to the losers.


I'm impressed

You nailed most of the gameplay!



Thanks. I've updated the OP with all these details.
Now I just need to wait a whole year to play it.
 
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Appears to be 12 season cards placed out.

Was also mentioned that each clan is getting an additional 3 small bases because of the new kickstarter monsters.


One card has me stumped, not sure when you'd pick up a winter upgrade.
Described as follows:

Winter upgrade.
Form of the Phoenix - Costs 4 coins. End of the game: Gain 2 sun for each different Virtue you have.
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Warlock00 wrote:
One card has me stumped, not sure when you'd pick up a winter upgrade.
Described as follows:

Winter upgrade.
Form of the Phoenix - Costs 4 coins. End of the game: Gain 2 sun for each different Virtue you have.
I have been thinking about this too and the best explanation I can come up with is that you do not pick this in winter (as no such season exists in Rising Sun), but that it is an upgrade for "Winter", which is just Rising Suns term for "end of the game".

So you will pick this upgrade up in one of the earlier seasons and when the end of the game / winter comes you score it.
 
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Fel Barros
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Exactly right , Patrick

There are fixed and interchangeable game end victory points cards that will score at game end.
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Jesse Marzel
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FakeDutch wrote:
Exactly right , Patrick

There are fixed and interchangeable game end victory points cards that will score at game end.


Oh, I do have a few questions actually.

I wanted to know what are the limits placed on allied players and how do they interact in combat.

I also wanted to know how does one interact with other player's Shinto on the mountains - can they be killed or moved, do they reset after each season and go home, can they move when marshaling, etc.
 
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One question from the video about combat. Does a battle start if the region contains just you and your allies Clan? Or only if there's at least 1 foe Clan involved?

Referring to the 3 way battle where there was a hostage taken from an allie. Also are force values combined with your allie during combat?
 
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So, does anyone know,... it sounds like your monsters stay with you from season to season,... is there a limit to how many you can control?
 
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JoeNothin wrote:
FakeDutch wrote:
Exactly right , Patrick

There are fixed and interchangeable game end victory points cards that will score at game end.


Oh, I do have a few questions actually.

I wanted to know what are the limits placed on allied players and how do they interact in combat.

I also wanted to know how does one interact with other player's Shinto on the mountains - can they be killed or moved, do they reset after each season and go home, can they move when marshaling, etc.


You don't go to war with allies. So if a province at war only have allies is just an area control affair (another good reason for betrayal).

As for Shintos, they can't move and tbey only go up during Recruit. At tbe end of each age, they return from the top of mountain.

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No limit on the monsters amount but they are hotly contested so don't expect to have too many
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JJJBonez wrote:
One question from the video about combat. Does a battle start if the region contains just you and your allies Clan? Or only if there's at least 1 foe Clan involved?

Referring to the 3 way battle where there was a hostage taken from an allie. Also are force values combined with your allie during combat?


Values are not combined. But allied players can talk tactics "take the hostage/"i will deny ronins" stuff like that.
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Outstanding! Thank you so much for summarizing the game play thus far and another BIG thanks to Fel Barros (Fake Dutch) for chiming in and sharing.
I can't wait to play this game!
 
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It's kind of ridiculous that CMON gets all these pledges while someone else has to gather all these info. Then we thank them for chiming in in these discussions. Thanks for giving us crumbs haha. How about preparing a rulebook before launching the campaign or something.
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Bewulf wrote:
Warlock00 wrote:
One card has me stumped, not sure when you'd pick up a winter upgrade.
Described as follows:

Winter upgrade.
Form of the Phoenix - Costs 4 coins. End of the game: Gain 2 sun for each different Virtue you have.
I have been thinking about this too and the best explanation I can come up with is that you do not pick this in winter (as no such season exists in Rising Sun), but that it is an upgrade for "Winter", which is just Rising Suns term for "end of the game".

So you will pick this upgrade up in one of the earlier seasons and when the end of the game / winter comes you score it.

Could as well be called Rising Sun: Winter's Coming!

I wonder what the average VP tally is in a game.

Edit: Thiago answered this in the comments: "I'd say it usually varies between around 40 and 80."
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boybogart wrote:
It's kind of ridiculous that CMON gets all these pledges while someone else has to gather all these info. Then we thank them for chiming in in these discussions. Thanks for giving us crumbs haha. How about preparing a rulebook before launching the campaign or something.

CMON would counter your argument with about 1.8 million reasons to keep doing what they are doing.
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