Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
9 Posts

Millennium Blades» Forums » Variants

Subject: Quantic Store - Avoiding Store Mash-Up rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Erik Burigo
Italy
Belluno
flag msg tools
designer
badge
“Don't try the paranormal until you know what's normal.” - Granny Weatherwax
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I don't know if this has already been addressed, but I find difficult to cope with the cumbersome activity of setting up (and tearing down) the Store deck.

Assuming Set Rotation and promos, the Core Set already has an impressive size of 167 cards. To those, we must add 144 cards from the 12 expansion, master and premium sets and then we must shuffle this huge stack of 311 cards.

To partially overcome this I keep the core, the 5 expansion, the 4 master and the 3 premium sets separated, shuffle them individually and assign a number 1 to 12 to each of the additional sets. These 13 sets are defined as the virtual store.
Thus, the Store deck is virtual, and in a "potential" state of randomness. The randomness is computed during the game, instead of up-front during setup.

To compute the "next" card from the virtual store throw two dice. A d6 (with 3 black sides and 3 white sides) and a black numbered d12. This operation is called collapsing a card (into existence).
- If the d6 roll comes up white, a card from the Core Set is drawn.
- Otherwise, a card from the set corresponding to the d12 result is drawn.
- If the corresponding set has been exhausted, reroll the dice.

The known part of the the virtual store, that is: the top card (visible by definition) plus - rarely - the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, ... cards (if accessed through card abilities - see below). This known part is dubbed store top and is placed in the 10th slot of the Store Board (where the entire Store stack ought to be in the base rules).
Whenever the store top stack is emptied (usually by a card that has been bought or drawn), a new card is collapsed and added to the store top.

When a card is sent to the bottom of the store deck, put it on the bottom of the set stack it belongs to.

Some examples:
- If a player buys a card from one of the 9 "regular" spots on the Market Board, move the first card of the store top to the vacated space. Then, if the store top is empty, collapse a card.
- When players clashes, they access cards from the store top until they run out of cards, then they will collapse cards from the virtual store until they are done with the clash, then they will collapse another card to the store top if it's empty.
- If a player with Luc Van Gott wins a clash, he chooses one of the used clash cards and put it on top the store top.
- Assuming the store top contains only 1 card. If a player uses the action of the Toil and Trouble deck box, she will reveal that card, collapse and reveal 2 more from the virtual store, choose one of the three to add to her hand and form another store top by placing the other two revealed cars in any order she wants.

Notes:
As you noticed, the probability distribution of this method is slightly off that of a "normal" store deck: expect to see less core sets card (50% against the "normal" 53.7%) and more of any other set (4.2% each against 3.9%).
A 26-sided die, with numbers 1-12 assigned to the expansion sets, and 13-26 to the core set would be much more in line. However, I found easier to use existing dice I had at home, instead of buying a d30 and reroll results in the 27-30 range.
Another remarkable difference is the lack of memory the dice have. If you happened to draw a lot of cards from the same set, the probability to draw another from that set does not decrease.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Paul Newsham
United Kingdom
Halifax
West Yorkshire
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
How practical have you found this to be when playing in real-time?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nathan Ehlers
United States
Cleveland
Ohio
flag msg tools
I love you!
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Yikes. There's already too much information to deal with real time. There's no way I'd be able to apply this system too. I just keep everything sorted and then we spend some time at the beginning of the game shuffling it all together. It's a beast to set up and take down, but it's also a long, heavy game. I have quite a few with those qualifications.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brad Hoffman
United States
Alabama
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Your idea is definitely interesting and different, but seems like it would be a bigger hassle while you are trying to do everything else in the deck-building phase.

I find it not that difficult to shuffle just the Core set cards together. The Expansion, Premium, Master Sets get shuffled together separate from the core set. All you really want at that point is for the EPM group to be about evenly distributed through the core set. So I just essentially combine the two together. Take half of one and half of the other and mash them together and take the other two halves and mash them together. Then stack them on top of each other or whatever you want to do.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dennis Menear
United States
Vienna
West Virginia
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I tried a similar system using a spreadsheet in our first game. It was a distinct disadvantage for the person pulling the cards because everyone else is concentrating on their deck while you are concentrating on drawing cards.
There were often 2 or 3 empty slots in the store with players waiting for cards to be drawn. Awkward at best.

In our opinion the game quality suffers too much to justify the time saved in setup.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Erik Burigo
Italy
Belluno
flag msg tools
designer
badge
“Don't try the paranormal until you know what's normal.” - Granny Weatherwax
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I used the simple present tense, but it would be more honest to use the future progressive.
I still hadn't the opportunity to play the game since it arrived at my home. This variant is my intended plan, but your remarkable comments are raising my level of doubt on it. So it's very probable that I'm applying a bandage before the injury.

I'm then leveraging this thread to ask you some practical question about the game:

1) Is the deckbuilding phase so frantic that you a have constant stream of multiple players simultaneously buying cards from the store?

2) Does a store deck that high ever topple if the situation is that chaotic? (This is one thing I'm honestly am afraid of.)

3) How many minutes do you typically spend shuffling the store deck or, as Brad correctly suggested, its two halves? Do you often notice clusters of cards from the same set?

4) How many cards do typically remain in the store deck at the end of the game; and how many minutes do you typically spend sorting them out?

5) The rulebook mentions the chance for the store deck to be exhausted; is that a common possibility or a quite remote one even over three tournaments?

In particular, if #5 happens very often then most of the rationale behind this variant is pointless: as the game progresses more and more "miss" would happen as individual sets get exhausted, and at the end of the game I still have to sort out the entire store for the tear-down phase.

Mind that, if I'm going to use this variant, I'll play it so that the person that causes a vacancy in the store is the one who collapses the next card, and the others have to wait for that procedure to finish before buying other cards.
This may causes a queue for the dice, but it will evenly distributes the added effort among players.

Thank you all for your feedback and suggestions.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dennis Menear
United States
Vienna
West Virginia
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
1) Depends on the players. Each group is different. I've never seen frantic in that cards are flying off the table, but I have seen folks hurrying to beat the clock.

2) Our deck has never fallen over.

3) 10 to 15 minutes. I use the "magic" style of shuffling - deal the cards into several stacks, then shuffle each stack, then combine And shuffle.

4) Variable number of cards left depending on many factors. We often use the "post game analysis phase" to sort the cards back into piles. If folks can't stay for sorting, I do it on my own while watching a video.

5) We have only had the deck run out once, so it is possible but not likely
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nathaniel Chambers
United States
Austin
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
--1) Is the deckbuilding phase so frantic that you a have constant stream of multiple players simultaneously buying cards from the store?

With 3 players: at times yes, but not usually. Most of the time, only one person is buying from the store. Of course, as players go up, it increases.

--2) Does a store deck that high ever topple if the situation is that chaotic? (This is one thing I'm honestly am afraid of.)

I sleeve my cards. This was never going to be one huge deck. I split the deck in two at the beginning. There's almost no chance we'd run out of cards by the end of the round. Of course, next round, I will then add the other half of the deck to the bottom of the current one, presuming the height isn't too crazy.

--3) How many minutes do you typically spend shuffling the store deck or, as Brad correctly suggested, its two halves? Do you often notice clusters of cards from the same set?

5 minutes maybe? Clustering happens, but clustering will always happen. That's shuffling. The way I shuffle is I take a bunch of expansions and some core decks, and distribute it among the other 3/4/5 players. We then shuffle, split deck in half, pass, shuffle, split deck in half, pass, etc.

--4) How many cards do typically remain in the store deck at the end of the game; and how many minutes do you typically spend sorting them out?

I didn't count from my game last night. I imagine in a 5 player game it would be close to the whole thing being used, but not quite. I've only played 3 player at this point (a full game anyway). In a 3 player game a good bit is still remaining. Not a silly amount, but enough.

Sorting is a pain, plain and simple. If you're friends help, it's not bad. If you're friends dip out because they are in a hurry, your job just got a lot harder. I saw someone recommend this online though: sort first by color, then by set. You wouldn't think it would be that helpful, in theory it could even add time, but man, it makes sorting so much easier. I think the biggest thing is to make sure your friends know the game so they can help you. If it really bugs you though, don't forget you can just remove starter and promo cards and keep the store setup the same from game to game. You'll still get more than enough variety out of it.

--5) The rulebook mentions the chance for the store deck to be exhausted; is that a common possibility or a quite remote one even over three tournaments?

With 5 players, it is a possibility I guess. But shuffling the discarded cards would not be a problem, just hit pause on your timer, tell people to not look at their cards, and shuffle the store discard real quick. The store discard usually isn't all that big, since many cards are discarded out of the game rather than into the discard.

That said, up and tearing down with only 2 people feels a lot harder. But I'm also not a huge fan of this game two player, as it inherently looses that negotiation aspect, which I'm not usually a fan of, but love in this game. It makes selling cards to the market significantly easier too when you aren't thinking zero-sum scoring.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
oeil danslabouche
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Variant suggestions before playing a game is never a good idea ...

Sleeves yours cards, it will be realy fine to shuffle !
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.