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Subject: Retaliate trigger timing rss

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Chris
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Just to get sure...

Retaliate triggers after the whole melee attack action right?

So if I had a melee Attak 3 which hits multiple targets (like tinkerer's flamethrower), retaliate occurs after I hit all three targets?

Also if I had a melee attack Target 3 it would occure after all three attacks of the attack action right?

I asked because yesterday I had 2 life and attacked three guys in melee and I would have died against retalite 2 after the first hit and so I couldn't hit the other too...



 
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Pete Thane
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This is covered on the 1st page of the FAQ

Quote:
When exactly does retaliate trigger?
Retaliate triggers after all effects of an attack have been applied. If the retaliating figure dies from the attack, the retaliate does not trigger because the figure is removed from the board beforehand. If the retaliating figure is pushed out of the range of its retaliate, it also does not trigger. However, if it is pulled into retaliate range, it would trigger.


This also may help (again in the FAQ)
Quote:

What's the difference between an attack and an attack action?
And attack is a single attack on a single target that flips over a single attack modifier card. And attack action constitutes all the attacks made with a specific action (entire top or bottom half of an ability card). If your attack action is, say, "Attack 3," then there is only one attack in your attack action. If it is "Attack 2, Target 3," then your attack action consists of three separate attacks.


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Chris
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ah okay so in case of Target X you would get the retaliate after each attack of the attack action if I understand correctly

EDIT: Or does "all effects of an attack" include target x?^^
 
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Paul Grogan
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Best not to attack guys that have retaliate Sometimes it is better to change plans once you have seen the enemy card.
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Chris
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Paul, if the enemies are set up perfectly for a flamethrower attack and you have just this round left before exhaustion and the guards get a shield 1 retaliate 2 with a initiative of 15 and I just needed 2 more enemies to kill, what else should I do^^

yesteday we won because I offered myself to the gods with a heavy flamethrower attack and my partner the Inox Brute did the rest


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Paul Grogan
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A noble sacrifice indeed. Well played sir!
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Stefan
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An "Attack X, Target 3" or also an attack with a drawn area is in my opinion one and the same attack (not only the same attack action). I would assume that damage is done to all 3 targets simultaneously and afterwards the retalliate(s) would trigger.

This is different to some Card that says for example "Attack 2 -> Move 2 -> Attack 2". Here you would have two different attacks and retalliate would trigger after each one is finished.
 
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CycyX
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I'm just re-quoting the last sentence from a FAQ entry, already quoted here:
Quote:
If it is "Attack 2, Target 3," then your attack action consists of three separate attacks.

...
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Chris
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so if retaliate occurs after every attack, and target X means seperated attacks in one attack action you have to resolve retaliate after every single target attack.
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Mike Daneman
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I have a somewhat different question. Some monsters have multi-target attacks (e.g. Living Bones), but have a card that says "target same figure with all attacks". If the "figure" in question has Retaliate, will the monster get hit multiple times or just once?
 
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Jeppe Bøttger
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Mishenka wrote:
I have a somewhat different question. Some monsters have multi-target attacks (e.g. Living Bones), but have a card that says "target same figure with all attacks". If the "figure" in question has Retaliate, will the monster get hit multiple times or just once?

Multiple times. Shield will also affect each attack separately.
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Justin Boehm
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adjacentbeastman wrote:
so if retaliate occurs after every attack, and target X means seperated attacks in one attack action you have to resolve retaliate after every single target attack.


I guess so? For a "target 3" it's logical, but for an area attack it doesn't make a lot of sense though does it? Not like monster a could hit me (and possibly kill me) after the flames hit him but before they hit the guy next to him lol.
 
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CycyX
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There is nothing in the rules against you landing an AoE attack with you standing in the middle, so I guess retaliate would work in this case too.
 
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Alex Florin
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Gambit001 wrote:
adjacentbeastman wrote:
so if retaliate occurs after every attack, and target X means seperated attacks in one attack action you have to resolve retaliate after every single target attack.


I guess so? For a "target 3" it's logical, but for an area attack it doesn't make a lot of sense though does it? Not like monster a could hit me (and possibly kill me) after the flames hit him but before they hit the guy next to him lol.


You have to resolve retaliate after each individual attack of an AoE. There is no exception in the rules for AoE attacks and the retaliate triggering timing.
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Chris
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aflorin wrote:
Gambit001 wrote:
adjacentbeastman wrote:
so if retaliate occurs after every attack, and target X means seperated attacks in one attack action you have to resolve retaliate after every single target attack.


I guess so? For a "target 3" it's logical, but for an area attack it doesn't make a lot of sense though does it? Not like monster a could hit me (and possibly kill me) after the flames hit him but before they hit the guy next to him lol.


You have to resolve retaliate after each individual attack of an AoE. There is no exception in the rules for AoE attacks and the retaliate triggering timing.


Retaliate occurs after all effects of an attack. A aoe attack is one attack so I don't think you are right.
 
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Troy Laurin
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adjacentbeastman wrote:
Retaliate occurs after all effects of an attack. A aoe attack is one attack so I don't think you are right.

That is pretty clearly wrong by the terms of the FAQ. An AOE attack is one attack action, with one attack per targeted figure within the area.

Don't get caught up in pre-conceived notions of what an AoE attack is. In Gloomhaven, it's simplest to think of it as the equivalent of a "Target X" attack, just the figures you target are pre-determined by the shape of the ability.
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Darth Ed
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MrTroy wrote:
adjacentbeastman wrote:
Retaliate occurs after all effects of an attack. A aoe attack is one attack so I don't think you are right.

That is pretty clearly wrong by the terms of the FAQ. An AOE attack is one attack action, with one attack per targeted figure within the area.

Don't get caught up in pre-conceived notions of what an AoE attack is. In Gloomhaven, it's simplest to think of it as the equivalent of a "Target X" attack, just the figures you target are pre-determined by the shape of the ability.

What about the Cragheart's "adjacent allies and enemies suffer 1 damage" effects? In those cases, you only have 1 target and there's splash damage to adjacent units. We've so far ruled that "suffer X damage" effects is not an attack per se on that unit and cannot trigger that unit's retaliate effect. Is that correct?
 
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Jarad Bond
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DarthEd wrote:
MrTroy wrote:
adjacentbeastman wrote:
Retaliate occurs after all effects of an attack. A aoe attack is one attack so I don't think you are right.

That is pretty clearly wrong by the terms of the FAQ. An AOE attack is one attack action, with one attack per targeted figure within the area.

Don't get caught up in pre-conceived notions of what an AoE attack is. In Gloomhaven, it's simplest to think of it as the equivalent of a "Target X" attack, just the figures you target are pre-determined by the shape of the ability.

What about the Cragheart's "adjacent allies and enemies suffer 1 damage" effects? In those cases, you only have 1 target and there's splash damage to adjacent units. We've so far ruled that "suffer X damage" effects is not an attack per se on that unit and cannot trigger that unit's retaliate effect. Is that correct?

That would be correct, yes. Suffer Damage does not equal Attack, and retaliate only triggers from an Attack.
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CycyX
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adjacentbeastman wrote:
Retaliate occurs after all effects of an attack. A aoe attack is one attack so I don't think you are right.


Just look at the FAQ again, retaliate takes place after each attack, an attack being defined by the draw of an attack modifier card.
If your AoE affects 5 ennemies, there are 5 different attacks.

Again, simply requoting here:
Quote:
What's the difference between an attack and an attack action?
And attack is a single attack on a single target that flips over a single attack modifier card. And attack action constitutes all the attacks made with a specific action (entire top or bottom half of an ability card).
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Chris
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MrTroy wrote:
adjacentbeastman wrote:
Retaliate occurs after all effects of an attack. A aoe attack is one attack so I don't think you are right.

That is pretty clearly wrong by the terms of the FAQ. An AOE attack is one attack action, with one attack per targeted figure within the area.

Don't get caught up in pre-conceived notions of what an AoE attack is. In Gloomhaven, it's simplest to think of it as the equivalent of a "Target X" attack, just the figures you target are pre-determined by the shape of the ability.


ok I see now... damn then we played it wrong last time :/

I would have died after the first attack of the flamethrower

 
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Stefan
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Okay, I have a follow up question then: If the attacks of an Attack with Target X or an area attack showing multiple hexes do not happen simultaneously, what determines the order of those attacks then? Can I chose that freely?
 
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CycyX
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Well, yes.

How did you play it? As you have to draw an attack modifier card for each target, you better choose which is which when drawing ("I'll try the Archer first, then the elite Guard and the Flame Demon for the last draw...").
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Daniel Berg
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danom wrote:
Okay, I have a follow up question then: If the attacks of an Attack with Target X or an area attack showing multiple hexes do not happen simultaneously, what determines the order of those attacks then? Can I chose that freely?

On your own attacks, I would assume you could freely chose the order of targets. I can't find anything in the rules about having to resolve on targets closer to you first.

For monster attacks the rules imply, if not outright state a set order:

Rules, p. 31 wrote:
If a monster has multiple attacks, it will choose the focus of its other attacks following normal focus rules, excluding
figures it is already attacking.
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Stefan
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I played it as if all those attacks happen simultaneously and then the order makes no difference (as abilities and retaliate are only applied AFTER all attacks are done). Still I am not 100% convinced that those attacks happen one after another. The FAQ only says that an attack target 3 consists of 3 separate attacks. It does make no statement about their timing.
 
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Chris
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danom wrote:
I played it as if all those attacks happen simultaneously and then the order makes no difference (as abilities and retaliate are only applied AFTER all attacks are done). Still I am not 100% convinced that those attacks happen one after another. The FAQ only says that an attack target 3 consists of 3 separate attacks. It does make no statement about their timing.


yes, but the FAQ for retaliate states:
"Retaliate triggers after all effects of an attack have been applied"

It takes place after all effects of an attack, not an attack action.

Rulebook quote of AOE attacks: "Also note that each target constitues a seperate attack, but all attacks together make up a single attack action"

but maybe Isaac forgot to write: "Retaliate triggers after all effects of an attack ACTION have been applied" in the FAQ



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