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Subject: Adjacency of zones in tutorial mission. rss

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Nick Bos
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In the tutorial mission, I was wondering about some zones.

1) The topleft and topright corner zones in the 2nd tile (topleft), are they adjacent to the building within?

2) The bottomleft and topleft zone in the 3rd tile (topright), are those adjacent to the building within?

I want to say no to 1 and yes to 2, but the especially in case nr. 1 the lines and walls are really not that clearly positioned.

Thanks.

Rant time: I don't believe for a second that this game went through blind reviewing. I consider myself an avid reader of rulebooks, and have no problems with figuring out complicated pc games such as Dwarf Fortress etc., yet a simple game as this got me stuck 4 times in the first 10 minutes where I needed to try and find answers on these forums.
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Rob
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Quote:
I don't believe for a second that this game went through blind reviewing. I consider myself an avid reader of rulebooks, and have no problems with figuring out complicated pc games such as Dwarf Fortress etc., yet a simple game as this got me stuck 4 times in the first 10 minutes where I needed to try and find answers on these forums.


Welcome to the club.

On your question, we stopped fiddling with the RAW on lines of sight as the 'parallel' lines rule felt too wrong and we went to a more simple LOS based on the concept of other games: if any part of zone A has a straight LOS to any part of Zone B, you can see 'it'.
Rooms - here we use the doorways as the limiting factor to decide adjacency. We also house ruled that you the walls inside the room block LOS and can only be accessed through the door openings.
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Nick Bos
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Roghain wrote:
Quote:
I don't believe for a second that this game went through blind reviewing. I consider myself an avid reader of rulebooks, and have no problems with figuring out complicated pc games such as Dwarf Fortress etc., yet a simple game as this got me stuck 4 times in the first 10 minutes where I needed to try and find answers on these forums.


Welcome to the club.

On your question, we stopped fiddling with the RAW on lines of sight as the 'parallel' lines rule felt too wrong and we went to a more simple LOS based on the concept of other games: if any part of zone A has a straight LOS to any part of Zone B, you can see 'it'.
Rooms - here we use the doorways as the limiting factor to decide adjacency. We also house ruled that you the walls inside the room block LOS and can only be accessed through the door openings.


Thanks! I was more thinking about noise though, which 'corner zones' count as being adjacent to the middle ones basically.
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Rob
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Ah. Oops. Here we ruled that walls count as a 'zone'. In effect, when counting, noise that passes a wall moves one zone less
 
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Jonathan Rowe
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Faerun wrote:
In the tutorial mission, I was wondering about some zones.

1) The topleft and topright corner zones in the 2nd tile (topleft), are they adjacent to the building within?


This one, right?



I think the walls of rooms are the borders of zones. Several rooms have some buffering on the outside (seemingly representing gangways, stairwells, whatever). It looks like the corner zones are adjacent to the walls of the room if the buffering counts as part of the wall, so the noise would travel to them.


And what about this zone? Is it one large T-shaped zone or does the buffering art separate the entrance to the Armoury from the corridor zone outside? There's no dashed line to indicate that they're two zones.



If we assume that the buffering art is just decorative, then this is one T-shaped zone. And that means that the corner zones in your example DON'T touch the walls of the room - but it also seems to mean you can move round the corner without entering the corner zones.



Argh.

Faerun wrote:
2) The bottomleft and topleft zone in the 3rd tile (topright), are those adjacent to the building within?


Yeah, here it is:



This seems clearer. The zone lines go through the buffering art, making contact with the walls.

I think we're over thinking. Whatever crazy implications the art on the board has, it seems sensible to say you have to move into the corner spaces to go round them and that the corner spaces are adjacent to the room they are next to.

Faerun wrote:
Rant time: I don't believe for a second that this game went through blind reviewing. I consider myself an avid reader of rulebooks, and have no problems with figuring out complicated pc games such as Dwarf Fortress etc., yet a simple game as this got me stuck 4 times in the first 10 minutes where I needed to try and find answers on these forums.


I like rant time!

I was baffled by the zones too until I finally just shrugged and decided to decide by committee on a case by case basis.

You're certainly right about the playtesting. It seems to be Adam and his mates running through each mission 3 or 4 times - hence the designer's comments in early versions of the FAQ that you use 'logic' or 'common sense' to solve these matters and he didn't put it in the rules because it was 'obvious'.

I hope Grimlord have learned a lesson from this that they will apply to Village Attacks - get proper 'blind' playtesters armed with nothing but the rulebook to go through your game.

What's sad (for me) is that EtS was clearly a love project for Adam and it's a VERY enjoyable game that excites most of the people I introduce it to - but so much carelessness and ambiguity. I'm a RPGer and a GM to boot, so I'm used to making on-the-fly rules calls and that means I can make the game barrel along as it should... but if you're trying to play it by the (current) rulebook, you're going to keep running up against these baffling situations.
 
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Jonathan Rowe
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Roghain wrote:
Ah. Oops. Here we ruled that walls count as a 'zone'. In effect, when counting, noise that passes a wall moves one zone less


You mean external walls? If ALL walls count as zones, then Noise-1 never gets outside its current room (Enemies in adjacent rooms where there's a doorway can see you, so they don't need to hear any Noise).

If external walls count as zones, then you need to make a helluva racket to attract even nearby Enemies - which encourages shameless 'farming' using the search rules.
 
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