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Subject: TTS hurting board games in long run rss

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Justin
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Apps like Tabletop Simulator

I dont know how I feel towards TTS. Yes, it helps people try out the game before they buy it, but than how many people will just use the app; and not buy the game due to its expense? As far as I know the company isnt making money on the simulator. I just wonder how many sales have been lost due to people just playing on the TTS, along with lots of the games expansions? Most likely hundreds, and that is just for one person, who knows how many people are playing all of memoir 44 (for example) and its expansions on the TSS, rather than buying directly.

People view it as a good thing now. But what if it becomes so popular that publishers dont print board games anymore. Than, everything seems fine until people realize that they are playing a video game (in general), and decide to move to actual video games, and away from TTS. Not to mention that TTS goes against what board games represent....which is a sociable experience in person, and time away from the electronics.
 
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Larry L
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TTS?
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Josh
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It's either Tiny Taffy Salesman or Tabletop Simulator. I'm not sure which.
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Bruce Gazdecki
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givemeInfoplease wrote:
I dont know how I feel towards TTS. Yes, it helps people try out the game before they buy it, but than how many people will just use the app; and not buy the game due to its expense? As far as I know the company isnt making money on the simulator. I just wonder how many sales have been lost due to people just playing on the TTS, along with lots of the games expansions? Most likely hundreds, and that is just for one person, who knows how many people are playing all of memoir 44 (for example) and its expansions on the TSS, rather than buying directly.

People view it as a good thing now. But what if it becomes so popular that publishers dont print board games anymore. Than, everything seems fine until people realize that they are playing a video game (in general), and decide to move to actual video games, and away from TTS. Not to mention that TTS goes against what board games represent....which is a sociable experience in person, and time away from the electronics.


The part I bolded is what it represents to you, but not necessarily to everyone. I play games for the games more than the socialness, hence why I can and enjoy playing games solo.

As for TTS, I see your point that people won't buy the games, but if it's a social activity away from electronics, then they will continue to buy the games.

Plus there's the thought that eventually if it looks to be a growing problem the game companies will start taking action to shut it down.
 
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Francisco Gutierrez
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You are making a false equivalency.

Sales are not lost because digital sales are made. No offense to DVG, but I find Phantom Leader too fiddly to play by myself. I bought the app because it makes the game more accessible for me. Dvg got some cash because of the digital game, i would have never bought the physical version
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Justen Brown
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There's a common thread in your post, specifically you're asking to quantify something that cannot be quantified. Every medium has cowered in fear of the digital age and the destruction it would bring. But then they all realized that there's little-to-no harm in free publicity. And that's what Table Top Simulator is: publicity.

Some content creators still get upset but a lot of them either directly endorse it or give permission to other people to create it. I'm sure Splotter would want your $110 for Food Chain Magnate but they're fine with unofficial online implementations. And a wargame without a VASSAL module is practically shunned. TTS is actually one of the best ways to prototype a game; all the components you need, test players from around the world can play simultaneously, and the barrier of entry is practically nothing.

So wonder not, TTS is a force for good.

edit: And you have nothing to fear about physical products disappearing. Not when people are camping their computers mashing F5 to drop hundreds of dollars on the next Kickstarter mini extravaganza.
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Bruce Gazdecki
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joetaco wrote:
You are making a false equivalency.

Sales are not lost because digital sales are made. No offense to DVG, but I find Phantom Leader too fiddly to play by myself. I bought the app because it makes the game more accessible for me. Dvg got some cash because of the digital game, i would have never bought the physical version


But I think the difference between buying a digital implementation on iOS or Steam is different then a free download of a game that someone put together from their copy. IN the TTS case you could argue that 1 person bought the game for a sizable number of people.
 
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Brent Gerig
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I bought Roll for the Galaxy because I kept playing it on TTS with a friend, and wanted my own copy. That said, the only games I play on TTS are 1) Games I own, 2) Games someone I'm playing with owns, or 3) Games I'm learning the rules for. I even bought the Viticulture DLC when I already own a physical copy, because I like to be able to play my games with people who I can't necessarily get together with in person.
 
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Brent Gerig
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Bruiser419 wrote:
IN the TTS case you could argue that 1 person bought the game for a sizable number of people.

Good point. We should start making everyone at game nights buy a copy of all the games they play.
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Ryan Powers
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givemeInfoplease wrote:
Apps like Tabletop Simulator

I dont know how I feel towards TTS. Yes, it helps people try out the game before they buy it, but than how many people will just use the app; and not buy the game due to its expense? As far as I know the company isnt making money on the simulator. I just wonder how many sales have been lost due to people just playing on the TTS, along with lots of the games expansions? Most likely hundreds, and that is just for one person, who knows how many people are playing all of memoir 44 (for example) and its expansions on the TSS, rather than buying directly.

People view it as a good thing now. But what if it becomes so popular that publishers dont print board games anymore. Than, everything seems fine until people realize that they are playing a video game (in general), and decide to move to actual video games, and away from TTS. Not to mention that TTS goes against what board games represent....which is a sociable experience in person, and time away from the electronics.


VASSAL in the wargame realm seems to provide a dissenting coutnerpoint.
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Bruce Gazdecki
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flaquito wrote:
Bruiser419 wrote:
IN the TTS case you could argue that 1 person bought the game for a sizable number of people.

Good point. We should start making everyone at game nights buy a copy of all the games they play.


I think the scale is very different between a game night, or even a game group, and an online program...
 
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Brent Gerig
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Bruiser419 wrote:
flaquito wrote:
Bruiser419 wrote:
IN the TTS case you could argue that 1 person bought the game for a sizable number of people.

Good point. We should start making everyone at game nights buy a copy of all the games they play.


I think the scale is very different between a game night, or even a game group, and an online program...

Oh, I know. I was being completely sarcastic.

I think there are some people out there who scan their own copies of games, but I think most get ahold of unauthorized print-and-play copies. How those get out, I don't know. It's crazy the stuff people counterfeit.
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Justin
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I understand your guy's points, as I've seen them before on other posts. But, I dont think you grasped the underline meaning I meant. My apologies if it wasnt apparent enough.

In this modern economy, where board games arent cheap, and a lot of people are making lousy wages; do you expect everyone to try the game out, than fork out the money? Or, since people are tight with their money now, hold on to it, and just get the simulator? Most people find TTS not as enjoyable as the real thing, but add spending lots of money into the equation, and people might just keep on "testing the game." Saving money vs more enjoyment via owning game?

I know some people will say they shouldnt buy stuff if their that poor than! But lets be real, people will buy games for enjoyment whether its digital or board games.

 
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It won't hurt board games for people like me. I like board games. Not apps. Not TTS or Vassal.
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Jade Knight
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givemeInfoplease wrote:
I understand your guy's points, as I've seen them before on other posts. But, I dont think you grasped the underline meaning I meant. My apologies if it wasnt apparent enough.

In this modern economy, where board games arent cheap, and a lot of people are making lousy wages; do you expect everyone to try the game out, than fork out the money? Or, since people are tight with their money now, hold on to it, and just get the simulator? Most people find TTS not as enjoyable as the real thing, but add spending lots of money into the equation, and people might just keep on "testing the game." Saving money vs more enjoyment via owning game?

I know some people will say they shouldnt buy stuff if their that poor than! But lets be real, people will buy games for enjoyment whether its digital or board games.



Vassal (a tabletop emulator) was released in 2003. That's 13 years ago. If Vassal didn't stop people from buying board games (and, indeed, board game purchases have increased significantly since Vassal was created), I don't see why TTS would be any different.
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Stephen Rochelle
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givemeInfoplease wrote:
But what if it becomes so popular that publishers dont print board games anymore.
All the industry has to do is look to history and avoid the fatal flaw where libraries killed the book publishing business.
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As far as I know the company isnt making money on the simulator


TTS has both paid DLC (= boardgame company gets paid) and games people post on the Workshop (= company does not get paid).

There are currently 23 paid games. The latest added was Warfighter. Currently it would cost around NZ$200 to buy all the available DLC (no idea what the physical games would cost).

My understanding is that TTS actively seeks DLC to add and it does the actual work to translate boardgames to TTS - boardgame companies just need to provide the (existing) art.

Are these paid DLCs selling? No idea, but they keep appearing.
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Do you have anything back up what you said?

I'd like to know how iOS versions of games have affected sales of tabletop games, as well as how profitable they are. (Physical copies of games cost money to make, software copies do not.)

Stonemaier Games advocates giving away a free PnP during a KS: https://stonemaiergames.com/kickstarter-lesson-10-the-taste-...

I'm finding statements that piracy hasn't affected sales, and may have increased them.

"The show’s second season was recently released to record-setting DVD sales for the network. But in December, Thrones topped another chart that is far more dubious — Thrones ranked as the most illegally downloaded TV series for 2012. “I probably shouldn’t be saying this, but it is a compliment of sorts,” Lombardo said. “The demand is there. And it certainly didn’t negatively impact the DVD sales. [Piracy is] something that comes along with having a wildly successful show on a subscription network.” http://ew.com/article/2013/03/31/hbo-thrones-piracy/



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Matt D
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How many players do you think are on TTS? I mean, seriously, what percentage of the board gaming population do you think is using TTS as a potential replacement for buying the game? Enough to make an impact? Doubtful. Down the road? Perhaps.

But as has been pointed out, ease of access can sometimes lead to popularity. One could also make the suggestion that websites like Yucata, BSW, BGA, etc are ALSO venues where the board game can be skipped. Heck, those sites even find you players and run the rules for you. I can't tell you how many games I have bought because I played the Yucata implementation and enjoyed it so much. (Actually, I can - it'll be 15 if I ever get my hands on The Voyages of Marco Polo).

BSW and Yucata have been around for a really long time. Have they hurt the market?

You want to talk about piracy...there's a certain company with revenues last year of over $80 billion that owes the vast majority of its market dominance to the fact that their software was super easy to "pirate" back in the early days of computing, so much so that they easily established total market dominance because by the time they started making people really pay, everyone was used to and comfortable with their software.

I play TTS a lot. I can tell you that I have, through teaching people some games, definitely caused at least a few people to buy some games. I can also tell you that I was able to use TTS to test-drive Kingdom Death:Monster enough to know that I wouldn't spend the money on it. I SUPPOSE that cost Poots some money, but probably not. I use it to play in the monthly Legendary leagues, but I own all of those sets. It's just way easier to take up and put down.

Different people use things different ways. But I hardly think that TTS is going to hurt cardboard gaming any more than computer or mobile gaming did. Given the size of its subscriber population, I'd guess way less.
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givemeInfoplease wrote:
I understand your guy's points, as I've seen them before on other posts. But, I dont think you grasped the underline meaning I meant. My apologies if it wasnt apparent enough.

In this modern economy, where board games arent cheap, and a lot of people are making lousy wages; do you expect everyone to try the game out, than fork out the money? Or, since people are tight with their money now, hold on to it, and just get the simulator? Most people find TTS not as enjoyable as the real thing, but add spending lots of money into the equation, and people might just keep on "testing the game." Saving money vs more enjoyment via owning game?

I know some people will say they shouldnt buy stuff if their that poor than! But lets be real, people will buy games for enjoyment whether its digital or board games.

True, games cost money, but I don't think game simulators are stealing money from manufacturers. If I'm too poor to buy a game when there is a simulator I'm too poor to buy one if there isn't a simulator. Either way, the publisher gets no money.
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hestiansun wrote:

I play TTS a lot. I can tell you that I have, through teaching people some games, definitely caused at least a few people to buy some games. I can also tell you that I was able to use TTS to test-drive Kingdom Death:Monster enough to know that I wouldn't spend the money on it. I SUPPOSE that cost Poots some money, but probably not. I use it to play in the monthly Legendary leagues, but I own all of those sets. It's just way easier to take up and put down.


Poots had the Kingdom Death content removed once at the demand of several kickstarter backers (showing it can be done if the rights holder wants to stay on top of it). At the time he said he was actively ignoring it's existence and would have preferred to continue to do so. He also, more or less, said that if the content showed up again (as it has) he'd rather not hear about it so that he wouldn't have to address it being there again. At this point I think he's happily back to pretending he doesn't know its there.
 
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Steve
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You're too late. Vassal, BSW, yucata, boardgamearena, boiteajeux, native apps etc. all killed boardgames a long time ago. Look what happened to Ticket to Ride! They released an iPad implementation and sales of the physical game skyrocketed. I have to admit my guilt as well; I've played several games online and then went out and bought them.
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Gláucio Reis
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givemeInfoplease wrote:
(...) how many people will just use the app; and not buy the game due to its expense?

Very few?

Quote:
I just wonder how many sales have been lost due to people just playing on the TTS, along with lots of the games expansions? Most likely hundreds,

No, not likely at all. I think you largely underestimate the appeal of playing face-to-face with a physical copy to the vast majority of boardgamers. No software will ever replace the real thing.
 
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Tonny Wille
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I actually have bought more wargames because I know that I can play them on vassal while I'm sure that without vassal they would never be played.
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