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Subject: Social Issues forum badly needed rss

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Rob
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I'm tired of all the 'is this offensive' and 'such and such group needs a voice in the community' and 'games that aren't insensitive to group X' and on and on. These threads pollute the general gaming forum constantly by becoming the battlegrounds of arguments and causing strife.

They should have their own place so those that like to discuss this type of thing can do it in peace away from the antagonism from others that don't like to discuss this sort of stuff.

Frankly, many of these threads belong in the RSP forum and it's apparent simply from the titles of some but for whatever reason the admin responsible for this likes to let them ride a while before locking them down or moving them to RSP. That being said, an equal number are not really RSP material (at least not at first), but they don't really belong among "name your favorite designer" and "how do your organize your games'.

Well... why not just create these 'social issue' threads their own special safe space forum? It's a win-win for everyone. These type of threads get to be honored with their own forum and antagonists can be dealt with strictly since, if you don't like that sort of thing you shouldn't be perusing that forum and then, on the flip side, those that don't like these sorts of discussions in the general gaming forum can be free from the distractions and divisiveness they tend to cause there.

Please. This is desperately needed.
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Sweetgotham
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So I guess ignoring them, or any thread/post that isn't of interest to you, is out of the question then? I certainly ignore plenty of posts I have no interest in with ease and with no special skills outside or reading the header and thinking 'nope'.


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Cody
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They do have a forum: The Complaint Department. The moderators seem to prefer letting them fester in general gaming, rather than moving them there though.
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It's called RSP
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But these ARE general gaming issues, no? For example, 'games that aren't insensitive to group X' might not be an issue for many gamers on first glance, but it is definitely important to point these kind of things out in a public forum (which RSP is not really, it is hidden from the main page and many people decide (for good reasons) not to partake in the discussions in there) so that everyone can discuss them.

The fact that these threads get polluted with disrespectful comments (and not the other way round: these threads are not the pollution of the general gaming forum!) shows that many people in the board gaming community are still very offensive against certain groups, quite often possibly without knowing that they are acting offensively or disrespectfully.

A social issue forum might be nice but it would also not give enough credit to the importance of these kind of topics - gaming is not only what happens inside the game, but also a social activity which people partake in, which means that the people who are interested in gaming matter a lot as well.
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robininni wrote:
These threads pollute the general gaming forum constantly by becoming the battlegrounds of arguments and causing strife.

The thread which prompted this only "caused" strife when you and others came in to belittle and attack the very existence and premise of the thread and started misrepresenting the discussion as "spewing vitriol" and being Stalinist totalitarianism and other such blatant nonsense.

Thought experiment:

Imagine if every time you personally made a post on some subject of interest to you, without attacking anyone, people started angrily mocking and insulting you and falsely accusing you of spewing vitriol and totalitarianism and so on. And then to add insult to injury, someone proposes "There should be a separate forum for robininni to post in. His threads pollute the other forums and only become a battleground and cause strife!"
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mrmonkeyball wrote:
But these ARE general gaming issues, no? For example, 'games that aren't insensitive to group X'


... should be directly thrown into RSP as they are NOT gaming issues but social/political ones. And guess what ? There's a forum for that.
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sweetgotham wrote:

So I guess ignoring them, or any thread/post that isn't of interest to you, is out of the question then? I certainly ignore plenty of posts I have no interest in with ease and with no special skills outside or reading the header and thinking 'nope'.


That can be applied to any thread, so why do any get locked, just ignore them. Hell why have a forum for politics, just ignore the threads.

Inclusivity means including everyone, and making everyone feel welcome. Anything that makes people feel unwelcome or put upon marginalizes them and drives them away.

Also you cannot ignore thread titles in main space.
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Boaty McBoatface
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, would that be OK?
mrmonkeyball wrote:
But these ARE general gaming issues, no? For example, 'games that aren't insensitive to group X' might not be an issue for many gamers on first glance, but it is definitely important to point these kind of things out in a public forum (which RSP is not really, it is hidden from the main page and many people decide (for good reasons) not to partake in the discussions in there) so that everyone can discuss them.

The fact that these threads get polluted with disrespectful comments (and not the other way round: these threads are not the pollution of the general gaming forum!) shows that many people in the board gaming community are still very offensive against certain groups, quite often possibly without knowing that they are acting offensively or disrespectfully.

A social issue forum might be nice but it would also not give enough credit to the importance of these kind of topics - gaming is not only what happens inside the game, but also a social activity which people partake in, which means that the people who are interested in gaming matter a lot as well.
Lets see

"why is it that gaming now seems to be controlled by females" would that be OK, or "Why is it that only LGTG can gamers complain about not having a voice"?

Hell, look at how I was treated (with total disrespect) for just saying "I do not see how this benefits me".

Also how would any of you feel if you were just told to ignore some offensive or insulting comment?
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Dave Lartigue
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Every one of these threads has been originally started in a way that addresses games and the board game community. They are issues that apply to this hobby, whether or not you want to think about them. These are legitimate concerns that have developed mature, intelligent discussions until a certain crowd shows up to try to get them banished to RSP so the mere presence of discussion of the issue can stop them from feeling uncomfortable.

Like it or not, these are issues of importance to many gamers, and walling them off in their own ghetto won't make them go away. I'm sorry that every now and then you have to see a thread title that you don't like, but issues related to gaming in general absolutely are allowed in General Gaming.
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Sweetgotham
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eddy_sterckx wrote:
mrmonkeyball wrote:
But these ARE general gaming issues, no? For example, 'games that aren't insensitive to group X'


... should be directly thrown into RSP as they are NOT gaming issues but social/political ones. And guess what ? There's a forum for that.


Under this bizarre logic, I nominate all those "how can I get my wife/girlfriend to play games with me??" Threads off to RSP since it's clearly looking for relationship advice.

The idea that any discussion about gaming, gamers, and the gaming industry is somehow NOT about gaming continues to mystif me.

I get it, you don't like thinking of something you love as causing so much 'fighting' and debate. So again I say, skip those threads. Personally, I don't like threads about people complaining about how unreleased KS get rated 10s. So I skip over them. Because I'm an adult.
I do want to read about how a hobby and passion of mine is debated in terms of it's larger cultural and social contexts. But I have also, at times, gone months not doing so (and even not coming on the site much) because, yes, I as an individual have felt marginalized and attacked in the past. So I've posted less, engaged less, stopped going to one of my major local FLAGS.

But there is good news: while I seem a lot of the same negative faces in those threads as I did when I first started coming here, I've been seeing more and more voices that I, and individual who is a gamer, can relate to. Which brings me more love and passion for this hobby. And why people keep insisting that's a bad thing, well, too bad for them.

/sorry for typos, on phone
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Rob
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While you can argue these 'social issues' threads belong in the General Gaming forum, you can also argue the moon is made of cheese. It doesn't make it true.

Social Issues are called 'issues' for a reason: There is much disagreement. Allowing people to post this kind of stuff in the General Gaming Forum DOES detract from BGG as a place to get together and discuss hobby gaming. These topics that are frequently introduced are not really about 'gaming', they are about the social issue offered up. The issue is simply clothed in a 'game' suit so that it can be 'legally' introduced in the BGG General Gaming Forum.

I think an good argument could be made that all of these type of threads belong in RSP, but I would rather see a Social Issues forum right in there next to the General Gaming forum. This way, no one should feel marginalized, and these type of subjects which don't go too far in the RSP realm can be discussed by interested parties. Those that find these subjects irritatingly off-topic for General Gaming will have no knowledge of there existence unless they choose to view these thread titles which would require entering the clearly labeled "Social Issues in Gaming" forum.

As it stands, making the bulk of BGG members who aren't interested in pushing social agendas scan across these divisive thread titles, even though they are not forced to read into the thread, is like making people look at pornographic magazine covers, but yet they don't have to open them up.

How easy would it be to implement this? How much future turmoil could be avoided implementing this?
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Boaty McBoatface
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robininni wrote:
While you can argue these 'social issues' threads belong in the General Gaming forum, you can also argue the moon is made of cheese. It doesn't make it true.

Social Issues are called 'issues' for a reason: There is much disagreement. Allowing people to post this kind of stuff in the General Gaming Forum DOES detract from BGG as a place to get together and discuss hobby gaming. These topics that are frequently introduced are not really about 'gaming', they are about the social issue offered up. The issue is simply clothed in a 'game' suit so that it can be 'legally' introduced in the BGG General Gaming Forum.

I think an good argument could be made that all of these type of threads belong in RSP, but I would rather see a Social Issues forum right in there next to the General Gaming forum. This way, no one should feel marginalized, and these type of subjects which don't go too far in the RSP realm can be discussed by interested parties. Those that find these subjects irritatingly off-topic for General Gaming will have no knowledge of there existence unless they choose to view these thread titles which would require entering the clearly labeled "Social Issues in Gaming" forum.

As it stands, making the bulk of BGG members who aren't interested in pushing social agendas scan across these divisive thread titles, even though they are not forced to read into the thread, is like making people look at pornographic magazine covers, but yet they don't have to open them up.

How easy would it be to implement this? How much future turmoil could be avoided implementing this?
And note what happened when I showed up in one of them and made the heinous and HATE FILLED statement "In answer to the OP I do not see how this benefits me", where was the tolerance and acceptance of other points of view there? Who created the divisiveness?

If we can have polite disagreements on these matters, and have alternative perspectives respected and allowed, fine lets have them. But if only one side is permitted to express it's views of what is a pressing "social issue" then that is unfairness and bias, and that creates division.

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Russ Williams
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In the General Gaming forum, I note that there are threads with these subjects:

Setting a boardgaming group up for the youth at church
Need Advice on Hosting Public Board Game Night at Church
Get your local library (school, church, community center, hospital) into boardgames!
Church Game Night
Boardgaming in church. Need some advice.
Is Bang! an appropriate game to play at church?
Starting game group for kids at church: Ideas?

(And to be clear, I think there was nothing wrong with these threads, and I have no problem with them being in General Gaming, because they are about gaming, specifically about gaming in the context of Christian people.)

It is especially worth noting that of course many BGG users are not Christians, yet somehow the non-Christian BGG users managed to avoid invading these threads to turn them into long train wrecks with hostile gulp yuk emoticons, telling Christians that if they would just keep silent about their Christianity then we could all get along OK, telling them that the discussion is invalid and should not exist, insisting that the thread be locked or moved to RSP, accusing Christians of shoving religion down their throats, flaunting Christianity, imposing Stalinist dictatorships and PC thought police, etc etc etc.


In contrast, many BGG users are so knee-jerk hostile to threads about boardgaming in the context of gay people that they cannot resist angrily ranting in threads about gaming in the context of gay people. Which is very sad.
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" and "how can we change the demogphaics of the hobby".
russ wrote:
In the General Gaming forum, I note that there are threads with these subjects:

Setting a boardgaming group up for the youth at church
Need Advice on Hosting Public Board Game Night at Church
Get your local library (school, church, community center, hospital) into boardgames!
Church Game Night
Boardgaming in church. Need some advice.
Is Bang! an appropriate game to play at church?
Starting game group for kids at church: Ideas?

(And to be clear, I think there was nothing wrong with these threads, and I have no problem with them being in General Gaming, because they are about gaming, specifically about gaming in the context of Christian people.)

It is especially worth noting that of course many BGG users are not Christians, yet somehow the non-Christian BGG users managed to avoid invading these threads to turn them into long train wrecks with hostile :gulp: :yuk: emoticons, telling Christians that if they would just keep silent about their Christianity then we could all get along OK, telling them that the discussion is invalid and should not exist, insisting that the thread be locked or moved to RSP, accusing Christians of shoving religion down their throats, flaunting Christianity, imposing Stalinist dictatorships and PC thought police, etc etc etc.


In contrast, many BGG users are so knee-jerk hostile to threads about boardgaming in the context of gay people that they cannot resist angrily ranting in threads about gaming in the context of gay people. Which is very sad.
And dare I say that the reverse is also true, that you cannot make a polite pint and not be shouted down and "outed" as a homophobe just for saying "this does not affect me".

Ohh and there is a difference between asking "what is appropriate for my group?" and "how can I change the demographics of the hobby?".
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Rob
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russ wrote:
In the General Gaming forum, I note that there are threads with these subjects:

Setting a boardgaming group up for the youth at church
Need Advice on Hosting Public Board Game Night at Church
Get your local library (school, church, community center, hospital) into boardgames!
Church Game Night
Boardgaming in church. Need some advice.
Is Bang! an appropriate game to play at church?
Starting game group for kids at church: Ideas?

(And to be clear, I think there was nothing wrong with these threads, and I have no problem with them being in General Gaming, because they are about gaming, specifically about gaming in the context of Christian people.)

It is especially worth noting that of course many BGG users are not Christians, yet somehow the non-Christian BGG users managed to avoid invading these threads to turn them into long train wrecks with hostile gulp yuk emoticons, telling Christians that if they would just keep silent about their Christianity then we could all get along OK, telling them that the discussion is invalid and should not exist, insisting that the thread be locked or moved to RSP, accusing Christians of shoving religion down their throats, flaunting Christianity, imposing Stalinist dictatorships and PC thought police, etc etc etc.


In contrast, many BGG users are so knee-jerk hostile to threads about boardgaming in the context of gay people that they cannot resist angrily ranting in threads about gaming in the context of gay people. Which is very sad.


The difference is threads you listed are not 'social issues'. Here's a list of social issues I found without much effort:


Alcoholism
Food and Drug Safety
Tax Reform
Church-State Separation
Global Warming
Birth Control
Abortion
Suicide
Drug Abuse
Capital Punishment
Misuse of social networking
Animal and environment abuse
Homophobia
Poverty
Women's Rights
Religion-based Discrimination
World population
Organ & body donation
Human Rights Violations
Environmental Pollution
Children's Rights
Corporate Downsizing
Defense Spending and Preparedness
Euthanasia & assisted suicide
Eating Disorders
Unemployment
Homelessness
Racial profiling
Welfare
Recycling and Conservation
HIV/AIDS
Civil Rights
Genetic Engineering
Consumer Debt and Bankruptcy
Obesity
Terrorism
Judicial Reform
Censorship
Violence
Academic Freedom
Gun Control
Gender issues
Environmental issues
Single Parenting
Child Labor
Immigration
Tobacco
Nuclear Proliferation
Ageism
Stress
Cancer
Prostitution
Gay Marriages
Education
Health Care Reform
Embryonic Stem Cell Research
Affirmative Action
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sweetgotham wrote:
eddy_sterckx wrote:
mrmonkeyball wrote:
But these ARE general gaming issues, no? For example, 'games that aren't insensitive to group X'


... should be directly thrown into RSP as they are NOT gaming issues but social/political ones. And guess what ? There's a forum for that.


Under this bizarre logic, I nominate all those "how can I get my wife/girlfriend to play games with me??" Threads off to RSP since it's clearly looking for relationship advice.


Bizarre logic ? One is clearly social justice warriors trying to wriggle out from under this forum's rules on RSP type of discussions, the other is not.

If you don't see that difference, let me point you to the RSP forum where this will be clearly explained to you.
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eddy_sterckx wrote:
sweetgotham wrote:
eddy_sterckx wrote:
mrmonkeyball wrote:
But these ARE general gaming issues, no? For example, 'games that aren't insensitive to group X'


... should be directly thrown into RSP as they are NOT gaming issues but social/political ones. And guess what ? There's a forum for that.


Under this bizarre logic, I nominate all those "how can I get my wife/girlfriend to play games with me??" Threads off to RSP since it's clearly looking for relationship advice.


Bizarre logic ? One is clearly social justice warriors trying to wriggle out from under this forum's rules on RSP type of discussions, the other is not.

If you don't see that difference, let me point you to the RSP forum where this will be clearly explained to you.
Why bring up that jaded and over used term?

No it is not, it is people who feel excluded for some reason or other who want to feel part of a wider community. My issue is not with the fact they want to feel included, it's the fact that I feel there is a double standard, not that the basic cause is wrong. It is the fact that can express their sense of isolation or exclusion but others have not been able to (even in jest).
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I rarely post, but I read the forums regularly. I can understand your sentiment, but it's easy enough to just not read things I'm not interested in or dislike. I haven't personally encountered any posts here that have ruined the experience for me. I click on what I want to read and skip the rest.
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slatersteven wrote:

No it is not, it is people who feel excluded for some reason or other who want to feel part of a wider community. My issue is not with the fact they want to feel included, it's the fact that I feel there is a double standard, not that the basic cause is wrong. It is the fact that can express their sense of isolation or exclusion but others have not been able to (even in jest).


Excluded, feel part, included, feel, cause, express, sense, isolation, exclusion.

Yup - all the buzzwords are there for RSP.
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eddy_sterckx wrote:
slatersteven wrote:

No it is not, it is people who feel excluded for some reason or other who want to feel part of a wider community. My issue is not with the fact they want to feel included, it's the fact that I feel there is a double standard, not that the basic cause is wrong. It is the fact that can express their sense of isolation or exclusion but others have not been able to (even in jest).


Excluded, feel part, included, feel, cause, express, sense, isolation, exclusion.

Yup - all the buzzwords are there for RSP.
Maybe, and maybe that is the place for this kind of discussion. As long as it is evenly applied fine.

It is when it is not evenly applied I take issue, whether or not Octavian has the right to enforce whatever rules he wishes. He has that right, and I have the right to judge him wrong (but maybe not the right to say it here).

This is straying way off topic, so I will try and drag it back.

Do you have any objections to the OP's suggestion?
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slatersteven wrote:

Do you have any objections to the OP's suggestion?


I'm the guy who gave it 2 cents of geekgold so you can draw your own conclusions.
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robininni wrote:
The difference is threads you listed are not 'social issues'.

It's somehow an inappropriate "social issue" to ask whether there are any gay game reviewers?

If a woman asks whether there are any women game reviewers, is that also an inappropriate "social issue"?

If a Christian asks whether there are any Christian game reviewers, is that also an inappropriate "social issue"?

If a Polish person asks whether there are any Polish game reviewers, is that also an inappropriate "social issue"?

If a colorblind person asks if there are any colorblind game reviewers, is that also an inappropriate "social issue"?

If a football fan asks if there are any game reviewers who are also football fans, is that a "social issue"?

If a musician asks if anyone else is interested in playing bagpipes, is that a "social issue"?

Is it a "social issue" that people trying to lose weight often share their experiences at BGG?

Really, what is the problem with gamers looking for like-minded gamers with whom they share something more in common? That's all the original post that became a recent trainwreck was! Someone trying to connect with others from their subculture who have something in common and might find it valuable to discuss gaming with their fellows.

E.g. I've enjoyed talking with gamers at BGG about shared experiences about expatriate life, about shared experiences concerning travel, about shared experiences involving translation or language learning, etc, and AFAIK no one thinks there's something inappropriate about such conversations.

But somehow when gay people want to talk with each other about their shared experiences, a certain number of people automatically angrily denounce it as "ramming their sexual preferences and lifestyle down my throat" and "politics and SJW and PC" blah blah blah.
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slatersteven wrote:

"why is it that gaming now seems to be controlled by females" would that be OK, or "Why is it that only LGTG can gamers complain about not having a voice"?


Certainly you are intelligent enough to see the difference between opening a thread with some topic which is actually interesting to a group of people and threads which are purely provocative like "why is it that {wrong and disrespectful assertion}"

slatersteven wrote:

Hell, look at how I was treated (with total disrespect) for just saying "I do not see how this benefits me".


Probably because this world (and the hobby of board gaming in particular) is filled with other people who matter as well and as much as you do?

slatersteven wrote:

Also how would any of you feel if you were just told to ignore some offensive or insulting comment?


Is a topic of the any type the OP mentioned in any way offensive or insulting towards you?

I don't really think you want to see the point here and you seem to be just happy provoking others. The least you could do would really be to stay away from these discussions, but the best you could do would be to actually think about whether you would like to be treated in such a way and change your attitude so that on the day some board gamer who happens to be part of such a group could feel welcome when they are in the situation to play a game with you.
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And I think this has run it's course now. We are now going round in circles and attacking other users, this is not productive.

I think it is clear Octavian does not think this is a useful suggestion, so I suggest we drop it now.
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