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Rising Sun» Forums » Crowdfunding

Subject: Again, extra sculpt for basic units rss

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Claudio M
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CMON have the habit of introducing a second sculpt for basic units that have the exact same effect for game mechanics.

In fact, the first five stretch goals for Rising Sun are these additional sculpts.

In my experience with many different players, this feature is detrimental to the game, because it brings confusion. It is an established convention in boardgames that components that have the same effect in a game look exactly the same, to make it easier to understand the gameplay.
During a game there are tons of small components on a table and the last thing you want is a player not understanding whether a component is what they think it is. More specifically, if I occupy a province with 4 Bushi units, it should be immediately clear to everyone that it's 4 Bushi and not a mix with something else.

I find it amusing that people get excited for extra sculpts.

If more people agree with this, we should make our voice heard so that CMON might change strategy for future campaigns.

Anyway, if you are in Sydney and are keen to swap components to make all Bushi sculpts the same, let me know!
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Andi Kasper
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Many backers are painters and from that point if view it totaly makes sence. Painting 6 of the same sculpts can be a real pain so only half of that is a blessing for every painter. It prevent you from feeling like an assambly line.
That being said, I think CMON are gonna do that in future aswell because it saves development time(same rules, just a new sculpt/mold) and most of the people like them so cmon has an easy sg that would be in a game anyway if it would hit retail directly. Smart marketing!

Anyway I can understand your problem with it and hope you will find somebody to "trade" the sculpts.

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A J
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Definitely agree that it confuses the game. On the other hand, I want all the sculpts!
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Patrick Stangier
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supertopper wrote:
More specifically, if I occupy a province with 4 Bushi units, it should be immediately clear to everyone that it's 4 Bushi and not a mix with something else.

But that is immediately clear because Daimyos have a black counter base, Shintos have a white counter base and Bushis have no counter base (and Monsters get a counter base of your clans color).

So if there are 4 of your figures in a province without counter bases those must be Bushis.

Also it is an established convention in miniature games that mass units should get several different sculpts (at least two, more are better) for the same unit.

As a lot of CMoN target customers are miniature gamers, who are always exited for extra sculpts, I think CMoN are doing an excellent job here to satisfy both, Board- and Miniature-Gamers.
They have certainly learned from Blood Rage for which this complaint would have been valid.
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Ignazio Corrao
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supertopper wrote:
It is an established convention in boardgames that components that have the same effect in a game look exactly the same, to make it easier to understand the gameplay.

By that same logic all bushi (irrespective of faction) should share the same sculpt, it would definitely be clear to players what they are.

I believe that (like other forms of entertainment) boardgames are constantly evolving beyond previous criteria, and people are demanding more aesthetically rich components.

Also apparently, players reacted positively when Matagot started offering different sculpts for the basic figures in their games (Giants, Cyclades, Kemet), even if from a game play perspective it was entirely unnecessary.

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Hugefoot 00
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I believe that the term alternative means that you don't have to play with all of them at the same time if you find that confusing. You can use the standard version or the alternative or a mix of the two. I think the number of bushis you can use in one game is limited, as in you won't use all the original and the alternative sculpts at one time, you cane make due with only one version if it's too confusing for you. Also, colored bases for daimyo and Shinto
 
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Freelance Police
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That's why they're called CMON and not CGON.
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Connor Cranston
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Aren't the miniatures in different colors like on the pictures in the KS?

If so, what are the 40 bases for exactly?
 
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Paul-Henri SEVE
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Actually in BR, you could easily tell the warriors from the leaders, despite the alternate sculpts. those additionnal sculpts brought a nice variety without making the board difficult to read, so this is probably possible to do the same in Cmon other games, don't you think ?
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Ignazio Corrao
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Khonnor wrote:
Aren't the miniatures in different colors like on the pictures in the KS?
If so, what are the 40 bases for exactly?

One black and three white bases for each clan (20 in total), plus a few other bases to mark the monsters (remaining 20).
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Jason
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I would agree, except that each the clans figures are going to a color with colored bases to differentiate the pieces. This is much more friendly than having to remember what each model is like in Blood Rage. You can glance at the colors of the models to see who has presence where, and look at the base on the model to determine the function of the model.

With Blood Rage, while the extra models look cool, it's generally just easiest to explain that the figure with the banner is the leader and everything else (unless you have the mystic expansion) is a warrior. It's not perfect, but I found that the easiest way to explain it to new players.

I don't think we'll see that same issue here, since models will be represented by 2 colors - one for their clan and one for their function.
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Peter Bowie
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Yeah, not a fan of alternative sculpts. They just confuse things, more annoying to pack away, and have the same tooling costs as an outright new gameplay element, without the gameplay to go alongside it.
 
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Ignazio Corrao
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Paulax wrote:
Actually in BR, you could easily tell the warriors from the leaders, despite the alternate sculpts. those additionnal sculpts brought a nice variety without making the board difficult to read, so this is probably possible to do the same in Cmon other games, don't you think ?

Leaders are very easy to spot (because of the standard), but shamans are often confused with standard warriors.
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Claudio M
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Bewulf wrote:
supertopper wrote:
More specifically, if I occupy a province with 4 Bushi units, it should be immediately clear to everyone that it's 4 Bushi and not a mix with something else.

But that is immediately clear because Daimyos have a black counter base, Shintos have a white counter base and Bushis have no counter base (and Monsters get a counter base of your clans color).

Oh I didn't know that! That's cool, better than my previous experience (Blood Rage or AQ Beyond the Grave).
The only issue that remains is new players who are going to ask: "OK got it, these units work this way, what about these ones?" And you have to repeat "They are the same...". But it's less of a problem than what I meant in my OP.
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Jason Brown
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I really like the extra sculpts in Blood Rage and have never had an issue telling them apart from mystics and leaders.
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Mark Iradian
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supertopper wrote:
Bewulf wrote:
supertopper wrote:
More specifically, if I occupy a province with 4 Bushi units, it should be immediately clear to everyone that it's 4 Bushi and not a mix with something else.

But that is immediately clear because Daimyos have a black counter base, Shintos have a white counter base and Bushis have no counter base (and Monsters get a counter base of your clans color).

Oh I didn't know that! That's cool, better than my previous experience (Blood Rage or AQ Beyond the Grave).
The only issue that remains is new players who are going to ask: "OK got it, these units work this way, what about these ones?" And you have to repeat "They are the same...". But it's less of a problem than what I meant in my OP.


The player screens show the three different type of units and the colored bases so they really shouldn't ask anything.
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Chris Guild
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There were a lot of alternate sculpts for ZBP, 2 fatties, 2 runners, 5 basic zombies and at least 10 different sculpts for npc zombies. They're all pretty easy to identify.
 
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Ray Greenley
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While it may cause some initial confusion, I think the additional sculpts will help the table presence of the game, making it appear more dynamic. And as mentioned above, the colored bases should help prevent much confusion as to which unit is which. I'm happy for the variety.
 
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Mikkel Østergaard
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I really like different sculpts, makes things a bit more dynamic and interesting on the board, and if they are smart it will also let you have male and female minis in each clan. I think currently, only Lotus clan got this, but that's still better than having one clan with all the females.
 
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Christian K
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This thread reminded me why I am not a miniatures fan. It would be much easier to see how many units people had in different places if it were just colored cubes.

Ducks and hides
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Gláucio Reis
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Chromit90 wrote:
Also apparently, players reacted positively when Matagot started offering different sculpts for the basic figures in their games (Giants, Cyclades, Kemet), even if from a game play perspective it was entirely unnecessary.

Totally different case. Kemet and Cyclades have one type of army unit, so that you'd have to be a moron to be confused. And Giants has bases in very distinct shapes for each function.
 
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Jeff M
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No problem with the different sculpts here. Bring them on!!
The different colored bases (black vs white) for the different classes of characters should work fine, as was determined by the game pre-testers (noted by Eric Lang in an earlier post.)
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Ian H
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Muemmelmann wrote:
This thread reminded me why I am not a miniatures fan. It would be much easier to see how many units people had in different places if it were just colored cubes.

Ducks and hides


Hey I'm with ya. I'm personally a big fan of tiles and standees and stuff like that both for easy recognition and for keeping the prices down. I'm a sucker for Japanese themes and I'm in the market for a dudes-on-a-map battle game so I'm still considering this game. But I'd be way more all over a $60 or $50 version without all the fancy minis. Still I get that I'm probably not the target customer for a CMON game.
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