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Subject: Someone in here really hates co-op games rss

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Andreas Alexiou
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It came to my attention recently that every time I read ratings on any cooperative game, a certain member (Yellow Shoes-JasonSaastad) has rated it a "2" and pasted the same comment "Cooperative games are not games, they are puzzles. And whether I win or lose against a random inanimate/unintelligent algorithm, I am left feeling unsatisfied. I'd rather play a One versus All or a Team versus Team game."

He has done this for hundreds of games. There are two possibilities here:

a) He has played every coop game out there while hating coops to begin with which means that he is either crazy or he is in the wrong gaming group.

b) He hates coops and without having played any of these games wants to bring their average down for his own reasons intentionally and maliciously skewing a very useful metric for many of us. Sure,I understand freedom of speech, and that his single rating is insignificant to the total, but following the rules makes anything in this website useful and worth reading. The guy evaluates a genre instead of a game for every single game of that genre. This clearly is not within the scope of the rating system here and I believe his ratings should be deleted and he should be notified about this.

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maf man
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c) hes played enough coop games he thinks he knows them all well enough to make a sweeping declaration of dislike so anyone interested in gaming with him can look at his profile and know not to suggest a coop

This could be genuinely useful to him and the people around him. Sorry if you feel offended that someone pre-judged a game you like but there are times when you can look at a game and know you don't want to play. Maybe thats a bit short sighted but it doesn't matter that much. One low number wont hurt.
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Bruce Gazdecki
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This discussion has been had many times. His ratings aren't going to be deleted as you can use the ratings however you want.

And as an aside, I totally agree with him, but don't have the motivation to do it myself, plus I would give them a 1 instead of a 2.
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Bryan Thunkd
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Aion wrote:
It came to my attention recently that every time I read ratings on any cooperative game, a certain member (Yellow Shoes-JasonSaastad) has rated it a "2" and pasted the same comment "Cooperative games are not games, they are puzzles. And whether I win or lose against a random inanimate/unintelligent algorithm, I am left feeling unsatisfied. I'd rather play a One versus All or a Team versus Team game."

He has done this for hundreds of games. There are two possibilities here:

a) He has played every coop game out there while hating coops to begin with which means that he is either crazy or he is in the wrong gaming group.

b) He hates coops and without having played any of these games wants to bring their average down for his own reasons intentionally and maliciously skewing a very useful metric for many of us. Sure,I understand freedom of speech, and that his single rating is insignificant to the total, but following the rules makes anything in this website useful and worth reading. The guy evaluates a genre instead of a game for every single game of that genre. This clearly is not within the scope of the rating system here and I believe his ratings should be deleted and he should be notified about this.

Option C) He's using the rating system according to the official guidelines (which are based in part on a "want to play" metric) and giving the games a rating based on his interest in playing them.

Quote:
This clearly is not within the scope of the rating system here
People can rate games however they want.
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Lando Lincoln

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Puzzles aren't games? Huh. News to me. Some people are rather myopic.

And it really pays to read and watch reviews of games instead of just going off of a number. No single number is a very useful metric in regards to a subjective experience.
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Andreas Alexiou
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Sure, I get what you're all saying, and I did mention it myself but I still think that comments and ratings like these (common, it's pretty obvious that the guy hasn't really played every co-op game that has ever been published) don't help anyone. Imagine if we all adopted the same practice. The rankings (which is a big feat of this website), would be totally useless...

I personally don't look at the score, I look at the comments of people, that's why I kept noticing the same pasted text. While for many a score isn't so important for many users and publishers it is, as it affects the rankings, and in turn sales and so on.

I would never go to a group of games that I don't like e.g. wargames and start putting 1s in every single title because generally speaking they e.g. last too long for my taste. I think this is ridiculous. If you want to make a statement about your preferences that others should be able to see you can write about it in your personal description.

So, maybe there should be an option that you can put whatever score you want to games you haven't played, for your own record, but exclude it from the algorithm for BGG score etc...I do think that many cases like these though is just hate-voting which I personally consider a destructive practice...
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maf man
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Your asking someone else to do more work and for what? Because you don't like that they can predict what games they will like or not? Rank already has some factor to lessen those types of ratings anyways.

Your also putting too much on rank. correlation is not causation. Hype and exposure sells way more. More people own munchkin than pandemic legacy.
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Lando Lincoln wrote:
Puzzles aren't games? Huh. News to me. Some people are rather myopic.


BGG Guide to Game Submissions wrote:

What is not a Game?

Puzzles -- BGG has a prohibition against solo solvable puzzles, such as Rush Hour or Rubik's Cube. A puzzle is an item such that a problem is presented for which a programmed solution is available. In Rush Hour, each of the puzzles has a solution. For a Rubik's Cube, there is a series of programmed moves for any configuration that brings about the end solution. Puzzles are Outside the Scope of BGG.

BTW: I like 'games' like Brains or Cobra Cubes and would like to log 'plays' of them, but I understand that you have to draw the line somewhere.
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I think someone who rates a bunch of games they haven't played is a bit of a tool. However...

There is no way to regulate game ratings. People are going to do what they're going to do. Even guilt tripping them isn't going to work because they are righteous in their belief in how they rate games.

I've rated games I haven't played. I have my reasons, some good, some silly. It's hard to throw stones here.

Still, I have no problem with you posting your annoyance. I think it IS annoying. I think co-ops ARE games.
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jorl wrote:
Lando Lincoln wrote:
Puzzles aren't games? Huh. News to me. Some people are rather myopic.


BGG Guide to Game Submissions wrote:

What is not a Game?

Puzzles -- BGG has a prohibition against solo solvable puzzles, such as Rush Hour or Rubik's Cube. A puzzle is an item such that a problem is presented for which a programmed solution is available. In Rush Hour, each of the puzzles has a solution. For a Rubik's Cube, there is a series of programmed moves for any configuration that brings about the end solution. Puzzles are Outside the Scope of BGG.


Under those guidelines, it sounds like co-ops are puzzles, or at least a large majority of them are. So, I happen to agree with the guy giving chipmunk ratings to co-op games. Good for him.

And since a user can rate any game for any reason they like, making a thread about how wrong they are and how their ratings/comments should be deleted is pointless.

Also, the rankings on this website are worth only as much as you make them out to be. If you're looking for a barometer of "best game evar!", then you're gonna be disappointed in bgg. If you're looking for the game that is very popular and happens to be at least mechanically decent, then you might enjoy Bggs rankings. The ranking aren't a feat of the website, they are opinions expressed by the user base, for better or worse.
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Clive Cleland
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We should all be grateful that there is a comment to explain the rating. Since you have read the comments, you're able to make an informed decision on the ratings. It sounds to me like the perfect result!

This is also partly why I use GeekBuddies - I manage better with a much smaller dataset and helpful comments, and I generally know where our tastes lie.
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Bryan Thunkd
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Kaijuotaku wrote:
jorl wrote:
Lando Lincoln wrote:
Puzzles aren't games? Huh. News to me. Some people are rather myopic.


BGG Guide to Game Submissions wrote:

What is not a Game?

Puzzles -- BGG has a prohibition against solo solvable puzzles, such as Rush Hour or Rubik's Cube. A puzzle is an item such that a problem is presented for which a programmed solution is available. In Rush Hour, each of the puzzles has a solution. For a Rubik's Cube, there is a series of programmed moves for any configuration that brings about the end solution. Puzzles are Outside the Scope of BGG.


Under those guidelines, it sounds like co-ops are puzzles, or at least a large majority of them are.
Actually the guidelines only restrict "solo solvable puzzles". Most co-ops aren't solo games. And given that most co-ops have some sort of variability, they aren't solvable either.
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Bruce Gazdecki
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Thunkd wrote:
Kaijuotaku wrote:
jorl wrote:
Lando Lincoln wrote:
Puzzles aren't games? Huh. News to me. Some people are rather myopic.


BGG Guide to Game Submissions wrote:

What is not a Game?

Puzzles -- BGG has a prohibition against solo solvable puzzles, such as Rush Hour or Rubik's Cube. A puzzle is an item such that a problem is presented for which a programmed solution is available. In Rush Hour, each of the puzzles has a solution. For a Rubik's Cube, there is a series of programmed moves for any configuration that brings about the end solution. Puzzles are Outside the Scope of BGG.


Under those guidelines, it sounds like co-ops are puzzles, or at least a large majority of them are.
Actually the guidelines only restrict "solo solvable puzzles". Most co-ops aren't solo games. And given that most co-ops have some sort of variability, they aren't solvable either.


While co-ops aren't strictly solo games, I believe most coop games could be played solo, even if it means controlling more than 1 "character".

The solvable part is a bit more nebulous, as I believe coops are solvable but the information is usually hidden initially. As the game progresses and more information is revealed, the ability to "solve" and predict the outcome of the game is more likely. The problem with that is that you could sometimes apply that to non-coop games as well.
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Bryan Thunkd
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Bruiser419 wrote:
Thunkd wrote:
Kaijuotaku wrote:
jorl wrote:
Lando Lincoln wrote:
Puzzles aren't games? Huh. News to me. Some people are rather myopic.


BGG Guide to Game Submissions wrote:

What is not a Game?

Puzzles -- BGG has a prohibition against solo solvable puzzles, such as Rush Hour or Rubik's Cube. A puzzle is an item such that a problem is presented for which a programmed solution is available. In Rush Hour, each of the puzzles has a solution. For a Rubik's Cube, there is a series of programmed moves for any configuration that brings about the end solution. Puzzles are Outside the Scope of BGG.


Under those guidelines, it sounds like co-ops are puzzles, or at least a large majority of them are.
Actually the guidelines only restrict "solo solvable puzzles". Most co-ops aren't solo games. And given that most co-ops have some sort of variability, they aren't solvable either.


While co-ops aren't strictly solo games, I believe most coop games could be played solo, even if it means controlling more than 1 "character".
The question isn't whether it could be played solo, but rather if it can only be played solo. A Rubik's cube is different from Pandemic for example because while Pandemic could be played with multiple players a Rubik's cube is only solo-player. That I could play Pandemic solo is irrelevant. BGG is trying to exclude things that don't support multiple players.

Bruiser419 wrote:
The solvable part is a bit more nebulous, as I believe coops are solvable but the information is usually hidden initially. As the game progresses and more information is revealed, the ability to "solve" and predict the outcome of the game is more likely. The problem with that is that you could sometimes apply that to non-coop games as well.
BGG is using solvable is a specific sense of the word.

Quote:
A solved game is a game whose outcome (win, lose, or draw) can be correctly predicted from any position, assuming that both players play perfectly.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solved_game

A Rubik's cube is a solvable puzzle because there is a way to look at the initial state and determine the sequence needed to win (or in the case of a trick cube where some of the stickers have been changed around, to determine that it cannot be won). You can't look at the initial board state in Pandemic and determine whether you can win or not. Thus it is not "solvable" in a "solved game" way.

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Jason Saastad
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This is way less egregious than all the people who rate unreleased kickstarter games a 10.

I mean, if you genuinely hold his views on co-operative games (as an aside: I don't, I believe that the variable/hidden nature of the algorithmic opponent in addition to the human/interactive/meta-gaming that comes with multiplayer means that co-ops are games), then you certainly can justify going through and ranking games appropriately even when you've not played them. Of course, I can't imagine not having anything better to do with my time...
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Thunkd wrote:
You can't look at the initial board state in Pandemic and determine whether you can win or not.


Has anyone tried to estimate the percentage of all Pandemic deck configurations which are unbeatable? I realize that re-shuffling the infection cards after an epidemic complicates issues, but there is some subset of starting deck configurations that are guaranteed losses regardless of subsequent shuffling. That should be, at least, a calculable lower bound.
 
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According to me a co-op is absolutely not a puzzle. It may have a puzzle element, but it also has every aspect of a boardgame; it is social with a lot of interaction, it has a board, it has art, a gamemechanism, it usually has meeples / characters. There is strategy, no problemsolving like in a puzzle where you always have the same outcome. Gamerules of a co-op include more than 'solve the puzzle'.
If someone doesn't like the games they can express that and give them any rating. I just think it is silly to add to every co-op the comment that it is not a game. Why go through all that trouble? It also suggests that this person thinks the co-ops don't belong on bgg.
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UanarchyK wrote:
This is way less egregious than all the people who rate unreleased kickstarter games a 10.


I agree with this 100% I was tempted to get the 7th continent, but after seeing reviews I can clearly see it isn't really a 9.0. A lot of reviews are superficial from my experience.
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KyleWeeks wrote:
UanarchyK wrote:
This is way less egregious than all the people who rate unreleased kickstarter games a 10.


I agree with this 100% I was tempted to get the 7th continent, but after seeing reviews I can clearly see it isn't really a 9.0. A lot of reviews are superficial from my experience.


I am getting 7th continent, but the fact that there are tons of ratings from people who haven't played it really got to me. Its funny to compare the number of people who actually backed the game the first time and thus have played it to the number of people who have rated it on bgg.
 
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KyleWeeks wrote:
UanarchyK wrote:
This is way less egregious than all the people who rate unreleased kickstarter games a 10.


I agree with this 100% I was tempted to get the 7th continent, but after seeing reviews I can clearly see it isn't really a 9.0. A lot of reviews are superficial from my experience.

What is a 9.0, really? I rate Polis: Fight for the Hegemony a 9.0 but another user rates it a 2.0, saying "Counter intuitive area control game of robot armies teleporting all over ancient Greece to work the mines and fields themselves, eating your own dumb ass starving peasants to bolster their ranks. You also compete for a set of wonders that can only be build in specific places (could all be in your opponent's territory) and try to expand your empire by rolling a 4 sided die."
That would be a cool game. Robot armies teleporting all over ancient Greece. I wonder if it will come out soon?

Who's right? What is a "9.0"? What is "right"? Does life have meaning? I clearly know that I don't know what "I can clearly see it isn't really a 9.0" really means.

I shall now meditate on "realness" and "nineness".




(Also, I hope it really is a 9 because I really just shelled out a fortune on the new Kickstarter.
)
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Same thing happens to any game with an app.

Some people are weirdly puritanical with their definitions of what is and what isn't a boardgame in their mind, and are so thin skinned that they feel the need to go on about it, at length.

Others hate games with any random element and rate them a 1.

And finally, there's a certain user who rates every game in existence, bar a handful, a 1, even games that aren't out for another year.

It's weird, and it tells you a lot about peoples psychology, but that's just what happens when you have open rating systems, because people are a jumbled bunch of neurosis and emotion. (myself included, i have my own foibles like anyone else)
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BGG doesn't offer users the opportunity to exclude certain games from searches. I can imagine that a user would rate '1' all games he/she is not interested in, in order to easily search for new games.

I do the same, but rather than rating them '1', I use the 'preordered' feature to exclude them (as I never preorder any game so that option is useless to me).

Lastly, I agree that most co-ops are puzzles not worth playing, especially those where one player can rule them all (Pandemic, Andor). I quite like Eldritch Horror though, as the outcome is not guaranteed and the fun lies in the journey rather that in the arrival.
 
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Brett Moon
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There will always be outliers. If enough users rate games, the outliers will be become obscured and less relevant with each genuine rating.
FWIW I don't care for co-ops and never play them (except for D&D) but I'd never be an idiot and vote just to skew the BGG ratings.
 
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Ratings system like the one on BGG, are flawed.

First you rate the game on both how good it is and if your willing to play it. I dislike legacy games and I won't buy and play them (I dislike writing on boards and destroying content). But that does not mean they are bad games, they are just not my cup of tea. So should I rate them as a one, or not since I can't judge them

You can rate as personal opinions. If someone wants to rate a game a one: it's his opinions and therefore valid. If someone wants to give a game a one, because he dislikes red boxes as packaging: also valid. If a fanboy beliefs that since a game themed after his favorite computer game, it is outstanding: also valid. I chose to use my ratings as advice. Therefor I won't rate a legacy game. If someone would ask me, should I buy XXX-legacy, then I would ask him to ask someone else.

Also the high and low rating distort when giving people advice. 10 is for outstanding. Outstanding is, by definition, rare. So should this rating be rare. Most tens giving are more to raise the rating, they rate the rating and not the game. Then a one: how many games are general awful (Not as a personal opinion). I can make a great case why Bingo is an awful game and rate it as one. But still many people enjoy it, so it can't be completely awful. Also the rating the rating, applies to given ones. Ignoring the 10 and one, would make the system better.

I think the rating system is mostly for fun. People like to rate their games. But as a tool te determine the quality of a game: take it with a saltmine. I prefer a good reviewer that looks, open minded, for the best and worst in a game.
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