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Subject: Are they wargamers? rss

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Eric Burden
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Does playing only COIN games make you a wargamer?

I don't think so, my view are that COIN games are conflict driven games, but are not a wargame in the conventional sense.

Thanks,
turks1966
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Scott Muldoon (silentdibs)
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Re: Are they a wargamers?
turks1966 wrote:
my view are that COIN games [...] are not a wargame in the conventional sense.

But perhaps they are in an unconventional sense. Or irregular.

edit: also, who cares?
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Leo Zappa
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Re: Are they a wargamers?
If someone only plays COIN games I would consider them casual wargamers. I'd mostly say that if they are only playing COIN games that they are missing out on a hell of a lot of wargaming goodness.
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Łukasz
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Re: Are they a wargamers?
turks1966 wrote:
I don't think so, my view are that COIN games are conflict driven games, but are not a wargame in the conventional sense.


Doesn't asking questions on whether others are wargamers render you a non-wargamer?

arrrh
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Łukasz
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Re: Are they a wargamers?
sdiberar wrote:
edit: also, who cares?


Eric? :-)
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Freddy Dekker
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Re: Are they a wargamers?
Seems like Eric's left the building...laugh
 
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Rex Stites
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Re: Are they a wargamers?
turks1966 wrote:
Does playing only COIN games make you a wargamer?

I don't think so, my view are that COIN games are conflict driven games, but are not a wargame in the conventional sense.

Thanks,
turks1966


By "only" do you mean that COIN is the only wargame (or game resembling a wargame)that they play or that they literally only play the COIN series?

If a person spends 95% of their gaming time on Euros and 5% on COIN games, I don't think you could really classify them as a wargamer. The same would be true if you replaced COIN games with whatever you consider indisputably a bona fide wargame.

I don't know at what percentage of gaming time you need to be considered a wargamer (it might also be something in absolute terms such as X hours per month spent war gaming or a combination of the two).

It's a different question if all a person plays is a single game/series. If you play 100% WIF or ASL or whatever else, I'm not sure you're a wargamer as much as a WIF/ASL/whatever gamer.
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Philip Bolger
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Re: Are they a wargamers?
Within the self-stratification that is modern wargaming, you can get any five or six wargamers together, float the question of "What constitutes a real wargamer" and after observing their argument for a few hours, you'll come to the inevitable conclusion that *nobody* is a "real" wargamer.
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Bryan Felsher
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Re: Are they a wargamers?
I have a few opinions:

1) Playing ONLY COIN games DOES make you a war gamer.

2) But it doesn't make you an ELITE war gamer.

3) Pax Porfiriana is much better than any COIN game.

4) Opinions are like....
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Sam Carroll
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Re: Are they a wargamers?
I think the heart of the question Eric is asking is whether COIN games are wargames. Well . . . they're certainly conflict simulations, but the conflicts in question are often more social/political/economic than military, so by my definition: no, not really.

But you will also notice that their appeal is mostly to wargamers - I don't see Euro-gamers playing them much, unlike, say, Twilight Struggle. And it seems to me that one of the main useful purposes of classifying games is to help find opponents who like similar games. (Just saying, "I like games," can mean Dominant Species or Cards Agaisnt Humanity, for example.) If someone likes wargames, particularly CDGs, there's a pretty good chance they'll like the COIN series. So for that purpose, they're close enough. If Eric has a different purpose for classification in mind, perhaps he will share it with us.

I myself sold off the few COINs that I had gotten, but it was because my wargaming is mostly solo and I didn't enjoy playing against the bots. Had I had three like-minded friends in town, I'm sure I would have kept them and loved them.
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pɹɐɥɔᴉɹ
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Re: Are they a wargamers?
Well, if game ain't got hexes and a CRT then how can it be a serious wargame?

These new-fangled modern so-called "wargames". (Love 'em)
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Lucius Cornelius
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Re: Are they a wargamers?
What we need is a Wargamer Certification Program, approved by God.
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Rex Stites
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spartax wrote:
I think the heart of the question Eric is asking is whether COIN games are wargames. Well . . . they're certainly conflict simulations, but the conflicts in question are often more social/political/economic than military, so by my definition: no, not really.



All the games are confined to a single conflict/war. At no point are you not engaging in military conflict. To the extent that economic and political aspects are modeled, they are modeled in the context of how they impact the resolution of the military conflict.

Unlike something like Europa Universalis, where each player/country is pursuing an agenda other military conflict and military conflict is merely a tool for pursuing those agendas, the COIN games are exclusively about a single conflict.
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Wayne Melnick
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I think how the game is played is as important as what game is played. If I'm playing Case Blue solitaire in my basement, looking at the effects of different strategies, I'm playing a conflict simulation. If my friend Bill comes over and we play a game of The Russian Campaign where we pull out all the stops to try to out think each other and crush each other's cardboard OOB for the bragging rights as TRC champion of Parkwood Drive, we're playing a wargame.
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Peter Collins
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truep wrote:
I have a few opinions:

1) Playing ONLY COIN games DOES make you a war gamer.

2) But it doesn't make you an ELITE war gamer.

3) Pax Porfiriana is much better than any COIN game.

4) Opinions are like....



Yes? What are opinions like? devil
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Steven Hall
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Yes, clearly COIN games are wargames. So is Game of Thrones. This is fact, not just my opinion!
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Łukasz
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Quote:
Yes, clearly COIN games are wargames. So is Game of Thrones. This is fact, not just my opinion!


Anything, backed by three tanks big mobile guns, can be a fact.

arrrh

I recall there was once a discussion on Small World but it was other way around: does playing it made you a wargamer. They have like battle hammers and few use combat magic so that would qualify, I'd say.

Actually, the question is deeper, once you think of it. Now, Fire in the Lake is a wargame, isn't it? You bears all the attributes of wargame (whatever they are). It is a COIN. Gandhi: The Decolonization of British India, 1917 – 1947 is based on the same framework. Is the latter a wargame?

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Bill Eldard
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turks1966 wrote:
Does playing only COIN games make you a wargamer?

I don't think so, my view are that COIN games are conflict driven games, but are not a wargame in the conventional sense.

Thanks,
turks1966

Sure. I own A Distant Plain and Fire in the Lake, and they are both games that model war, and better than many games loaded with counters and CRTs.

Sci-fi and fantasy miniatures games are wargames, too.

If you want to consider yourself a wargamer, do so. If you don't consider yourself a wargamer, then don't.
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I would say if you also have a game of World in Flames or The Campaign for North Africa going at the same time you are definitely a wargamer.
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Bill Eldard
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rstites25 wrote:
If a person spends 95% of their gaming time on Euros and 5% on COIN games, I don't think you could really classify them as a wargamer. The same would be true if you replaced COIN games with whatever you consider indisputably a bona fide wargame.

So, if I spend 95% of my leisure time playing horseshoes, and 5% of my time swimming laps, am I not a swimmer?

rstites25 wrote:
I don't know at what percentage of gaming time you need to be considered a wargamer (it might also be something in absolute terms such as X hours per month spent war gaming or a combination of the two).

Sounds like it's gettin' complicated.

rstites25 wrote:
It's a different question if all a person plays is a single game/series. If you play 100% WIF or ASL or whatever else, I'm not sure you're a wargamer as much as a WIF/ASL/whatever gamer.

I've never come across that distinction before. What do WIF-only and ASL-only players have to say about that?
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Bob Zurunkel
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grouchysmurf wrote:
Quote:
Yes, clearly COIN games are wargames. So is Game of Thrones. This is fact, not just my opinion!


Anything, backed by three tanks, can be a fact.

arrrh



Technically they aren't tanks.

By the way, is Twilight Struggle a wargame? whistle
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Vince Leamons
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Westie wrote:
grouchysmurf wrote:
Quote:
Yes, clearly COIN games are wargames. So is Game of Thrones. This is fact, not just my opinion!


Anything, backed by three tanks, can be a fact.

arrrh



Technically they aren't tanks.

By the way, is Twilight Struggle a wargame? whistle


Indeed. If you don't know the difference between a tank and an assault gun, well, you're not a real war gamer.
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Lance McMillan
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The question is flawed. It should not be "are they wargamers" but "am I a pedantic curmudgeon."
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Łukasz
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SJAirshark wrote:
Indeed. If you don't know the difference between a tank and an assault gun, well, you're not a real war gamer.


Now go tell a difference between a tank and an assault gun based on stamp-sized low-quality image. That's obvious: assault guns assault, tanks tank. Sheesh.

arrrh
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Les Marshall
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turks1966 wrote:
Does playing only COIN games make you a wargamer?

I don't think so, my view are that COIN games are conflict driven games, but are not a wargame in the conventional sense.

Thanks,
turks1966


Probably though it is highly abstracted.

You have pieces representing regular military, police, and guerrillas. Those pieces move upon a map to control areas in order to achieve the strategic objectives.

Westie wrote:


By the way, is Twilight Struggle a wargame? whistle


No bleeping way.
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