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Subject: Summons and Target Selection rss

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Joshua Reubens
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So a Summons acts like a monster and all that... but often there will be two monsters that have the same initiative that the Summons must choose between. Does the player choose or does it attack the lower number because that monster technical acts first?
 
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Jeremy Loehr
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p.26 from the rulebook:
A player can have multiple different summon abilities in play at once, in which case they act in the order in which they were summoned.
 
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They call me Mister...
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midgar wrote:
p.26 from the rulebook:
A player can have multiple different summon abilities in play at once, in which case they act in the order in which they were summoned.


Yes, but that's not the question. The question is when a summons has a choice of target does it choose the standee with the lower number or does the player get to choose?
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toeknee n
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thaos52002 wrote:
So a Summons acts like a monster and all that... but often there will be two monsters that have the same initiative that the Summons must choose between. Does the player choose or does it attack the lower number because that monster technical acts first?


Well, whichever monster acted first is more accurate as an Elite acts before normal monsters of the same type even if the Elite's standee number is higher.

Edit: I said it a little better a few weeks ago.

adjacentbeastman wrote:
if two bandits are equal distance away which does the summon attack? players decide or lower number on the standees?


Since summons behave using the monster AI, it would target whatever went earlier in the round if both are equal distance away. So, priorities are elites and then lower standee numbers.

rule book pg 29 wrote:
If more than one enemy ties for being the closest, the second priority is to focus on the enemy who is earlier in the initiative order.


Edit: There's some discussion on this topic here: Behavior of player summons
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Dominic B
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As far as I know it is the same situation as with a monster who has both the summon and the hero who summoned it in the same range. The monster would focus on the summon because although both have the same initiative the summon acts first.

So assuming all share the same initiative the order of priority for the summon would be:
Elites (because they act always before normal monsters) - starting with the lowest number --> normal monsters - starting with the lowest number.

EDIT. ninjaed... of course. The Gloomhaven community is so fast.
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Nathan Stiles
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thaos52002 wrote:
So a Summons acts like a monster and all that... but often there will be two monsters that have the same initiative that the Summons must choose between.


Monsters go in the order of Elite first, then by their number on the stand up. That breaks the ties in initiative between monsters.

edit: Yep... ninja
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Joshua Reubens
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Oh well... kind of a bummer... Summons are a bit... garbage...
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Jessey
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thaos52002 wrote:

Oh well... kind of a bummer... Summons are a bit... garbage...


Yeah we got this feeling too. My partner quickly cut the summon from her Spellweaver, and I'm running the Mindthief and also cut the rats at the first opportunity... And we didn't even play by this rule properly.

I found that it was annoying to have to 'do the AI math' for the summons (add more upkeep to the game, at the cost of player decision points) and so we just played with them as mini-characters, making all the move+target decisions for them with no consideration of AI rules... they still got cut. The best thing my rats ever did was stop a zombie thing from attacking me for one turn (and absorbing a 9 damage hit)... then again, they would've done almost the very same thing as a card in hand.
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Vince R.
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Well the rat swarm also poisons, typically I find them weakening a target and letting me finish them off, if planned right. Or yeah, sometimes just a meat shield that allows me to do what I planned on doing. They aren't super powerful, but there are times when they do a great job in certain spots.
 
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Joshua Reubens
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Well... (mentions of an unlockable character)

Spoiler (click to reveal)
I'm currently playing The Summoner who I REALLY want to be good but he just doesn't seem to do too much. Often my guys (summons) are cut down in one hit before they do anything or they end up lagging behind and never actually get into the fight. Retaliate and Shield are both brutal against them too as they have fairly low attacks as well as low hit points. I have only been playing the character for a few scenarios so maybe he will get better but there just seems to be a lot of restrictions on summons.
 
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Wes Holland

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Candi wrote:
thaos52002 wrote:

Oh well... kind of a bummer... Summons are a bit... garbage...


Yeah we got this feeling too. My partner quickly cut the summon from her Spellweaver, and I'm running the Mindthief and also cut the rats at the first opportunity... And we didn't even play by this rule properly.

I found that it was annoying to have to 'do the AI math' for the summons (add more upkeep to the game, at the cost of player decision points) and so we just played with them as mini-characters, making all the move+target decisions for them with no consideration of AI rules... they still got cut. The best thing my rats ever did was stop a zombie thing from attacking me for one turn (and absorbing a 9 damage hit)... then again, they would've done almost the very same thing as a card in hand.


Our Spellweaver keeps her summon around most scenarios, but tends to end up summoning it in the first room, recovering it with Reviving Ether, and resummoning it right before the boss.

Additionally, one time the Summon pulled the Null card... So then the SW went all-out, knowing that there was no way the attack could miss this round.
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Jason Druckenmiller
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CrushU wrote:


Our Spellweaver keeps her summon around most scenarios, but tends to end up summoning it in the first room, recovering it with Reviving Ether, and resummoning it right before the boss.

Additionally, one time the Summon pulled the Null card... So then the SW went all-out, knowing that there was no way the attack could miss this round.


Playing solo Cragheart/Spellweaver, I do the same. Almost always summon it during my first turn, it typically survives until I have to use reviving ether so I just lose it then and resummon right to where I am.

While it typically will fall behind in scenarios with over 3 rooms, it manages to do a good bit of damage before falling behind do to slow door opening on my part.

I can't wait for more summon oriented classes as they seem so powerful as a level 1 card on the SW already.
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Jarad Bond
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SaintHax wrote:
thaos52002 wrote:
So a Summons acts like a monster and all that... but often there will be two monsters that have the same initiative that the Summons must choose between.


Monsters go in the order of Elite first, then by their number on the stand up. That breaks the ties in initiative between monsters.

edit: Yep... ninja

I'm sorry - is there a reference for this?

Monsters attack the closest enemy, then, if equal initiative, isn't it player choice?

I don't have my rulebook with me, but I remember only two criteria for the selection.

Edit: I guess I see what's happening here. I always thought that initiative number was different than when you took your turn in the round. I didn't assume that tiebreakers for turn order would carry over to monster focus selection and other parts of the game. Would be nice to get an official ruling on this.
 
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Greg
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logris wrote:
SaintHax wrote:
thaos52002 wrote:
So a Summons acts like a monster and all that... but often there will be two monsters that have the same initiative that the Summons must choose between.


Monsters go in the order of Elite first, then by their number on the stand up. That breaks the ties in initiative between monsters.

edit: Yep... ninja

I'm sorry - is there a reference for this?

Monsters attack the closest enemy, then, if equal initiative, isn't it player choice?

I don't have my rulebook with me, but I remember only two criteria for the selection.

Edit: I guess I see what's happening here. I always thought that initiative number was different than when you took your turn in the round. I didn't assume that tiebreakers for turn order would carry over to monster focus selection and other parts of the game. Would be nice to get an official ruling on this.


Page 29, under Monster Focus

"If more than one enmy ties for being the closest, the second priority is to focus on the enemy who is earlier in the initiative order (summons are focused on before the character who summoned them in this regard and a character who is performing a long rest would be focused on last).
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Frank Pelkofer
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logris wrote:
SaintHax wrote:
thaos52002 wrote:
So a Summons acts like a monster and all that... but often there will be two monsters that have the same initiative that the Summons must choose between.


Monsters go in the order of Elite first, then by their number on the stand up. That breaks the ties in initiative between monsters.

edit: Yep... ninja

I'm sorry - is there a reference for this?

Monsters attack the closest enemy, then, if equal initiative, isn't it player choice?

I don't have my rulebook with me, but I remember only two criteria for the selection.

Edit: I guess I see what's happening here. I always thought that initiative number was different than when you took your turn in the round. I didn't assume that tiebreakers for turn order would carry over to monster focus selection and other parts of the game. Would be nice to get an official ruling on this.


It's really the only way to interpret RAW. It took me a bit to figure it out as well. But, once you see it, it's clearly how the rules work. The only possible ambiguity with initiative order is the unlikely case where 2 different types of monsters have the same initiative. In that case, it's players' choice.
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Troy Laurin
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countertorque wrote:
It's really the only way to interpret RAW. It took me a bit to figure it out as well. But, once you see it, it's clearly how the rules work. The only possible ambiguity with initiative order is the unlikely case where 2 different types of monsters have the same initiative. In that case, it's players' choice.

I'd probably add that this isn't a different choice to which monsters get to act first in the round. You can't choose to attack one type of monster with the summons, then reverse the decision when the monsters actually take their turns.
 
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