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Subject: Industrialist and Warrior rss

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Chris Mandilas
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Hey everyone! I wanted to ask your opinion about these two aliens and whether you have come up with any house rules concerning them.

As it stands, it seems to me and all my friends that the Warrior is strictly much worse than the Industrialist. A loss with a Warrior will net you 2 permanent points. A loss with Industrialist will net you a number significantly higher than 2. Naturally, losing with a 20+ is not that usual, so let's say that a loss will net you around 8 to 12 permanent points. If you lose more than one game with Industrialist, you reach a level that the Warrior only dreams of and usually achieves in games that last way longer than an hour.

The Industrialist's added power of being able to receive free wins instead of adding the card to his stack only serves to overshadow the Warrior even more, while the Warrior's 1 extra token when he wins does him no favors in the comparison between these two.

Long story short; I do not think the Industrialist is that strong, since he is a "get something for losing" alien. I think he is an average-ish alien strength-wise. However, that means that the Warrior is pretty much trash tier.

Have you guys accepted this as is, or have you come up with any homebrew solutions?
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Roberta Yang
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You're right that Industrialist is basically Warrior-but-better. I wouldn't quite describe Warrior as pretty much trash, since it's strongest when you need it most (to get the fifth, hardest colony) and there are a lot of powers that do a lot less than the Warrior does, but it's pretty far below average. Industrialist I would say is significantly above-average, because it ramps up so quickly and has so much inevitability.

Warrior should gain tokens faster than it does. Industrialist shouldn't exist.
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Jefferson Krogh
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Neither of those aliens have come up in our group for quite a long time, but I remember the furor when Industrialist first came out.

Long story short? I'm comfortable with it. Industrial can really ramp up quickly under certain conditions, but it's more likely to get little or no direct benefit from its power.

Warrior gets something from each of its encounters, which Indy doesn't. All things considered, I'd probably choose Warrior over Indy if I were dealt them both. Not a slam dunk, though.

And frankly, neither of them scares me nearly as much as Warpish in a newbie group. cry
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Industrialist is not merely a "get something for losing" alien. It's also a monstrous combat power. The thing you get for losing is permanent, and makes it less and less likely for you to lose in the future.

If you want to house-rule it, consider the original version of Industrialist from the Mayfair edition:

1. Your opponent does not have the option to give you the win to prevent you from stacking the card.
2. Most importantly: You discard your entire stack each time you win. You don't get to use those cards forever.

There is potential for a middle-ground between these two versions. I'm thinking something like, when you win, discard the highest valued card from your stack. This way, the stack value can still go up and down, but doesn't have to go down to zero in one fell swoop. Although this might not be necessary at all. Or maybe the lowest card should be discarded instead, or a card of the player's choice.
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Rob Burns
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The original original Industrialist, designed by James Beach and James Rasfeld, was quite different from the Mayfair version. Original Indy added to his stack everytime he won, discarding the stack as soon as he lost an Encounter. Although many don't like this "rich get richer" angle, the more I think about it, the more I like it. It stays in the design space of getting something for a win rather than a loss, for one thing.
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Just a Bill
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I was just thinking similar thoughts, Rob. The Beach/Rasfeld version makes more thematic sense to me, and seems more accessible as well.

There's also a bit more drama and tension as he keeps winning more and more encounters, getting stronger and stronger, until finally it all crashes in a loss and his stack is reset, with a real sense of accomplishment for those who finally brought down the behemoth.
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Chris Mandilas
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rjburns3 wrote:
The original original Industrialist, designed by James Beach and James Rasfeld, was quite different from the Mayfair version. Original Indy added to his stack everytime he won, discarding the stack as soon as he lost an Encounter. Although many don't like this "rich get richer" angle, the more I think about it, the more I like it. It stays in the design space of getting something for a win rather than a loss, for one thing.


Phil Fleischmann wrote:
Industrialist is not merely a "get something for losing" alien. It's also a monstrous combat power. The thing you get for losing is permanent, and makes it less and less likely for you to lose in the future.

If you want to house-rule it, consider the original version of Industrialist from the Mayfair edition:

1. Your opponent does not have the option to give you the win to prevent you from stacking the card.
2. Most importantly: You discard your entire stack each time you win. You don't get to use those cards forever.

There is potential for a middle-ground between these two versions. I'm thinking something like, when you win, discard the highest valued card from your stack. This way, the stack value can still go up and down, but doesn't have to go down to zero in one fell swoop. Although this might not be necessary at all. Or maybe the lowest card should be discarded instead, or a card of the player's choice.


Not sure which of the two I prefer; both have their pros and cons. They both offer alternatives which seem fairer than the FFG version at least.

What about the Warrior? I read somewhere (I think it was you who said it, Bill Martinson!) that the Warrior receives 2 and 4 tokens for wins and losses respectively in CE online. Is that a fair adjustment? I was thinking 2 for wins, 3 for losses, since 2 and 4 might be a bit too much.
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rjburns3 wrote:
The original original Industrialist, designed by James Beach and James Rasfeld, was quite different from the Mayfair version. Original Indy added to his stack everytime he won, discarding the stack as soon as he lost an Encounter. Although many don't like this "rich get richer" angle, the more I think about it, the more I like it. It stays in the design space of getting something for a win rather than a loss, for one thing.

Interesting, but it seems it would only lose when zapped or when facing Anti-Matter or Loser (or possibly Pacifist), and if those aren't in the game, it just gets more and more powerful.

Hmmm... Does it still lose it's stack when it loses with an N? Is the stack affected by a deal situation?

Remember, neither the Mayfair version nor the FFG version are merely "get something for losing" powers - they are *combat* powers on the scale of Virus and Leviathan.
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Rob Burns
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From The Warp:

Industrialist wrote:
You have the power to build. If you play a challenge card in a challenge and you win or make a deal, do not discard it but leave it face up before you. You now add this card to your total the next time you are a main player. If you win again, do not discard either card but keep them both face up before you. You now add both cards to your total the next time you are a main player. This process continues throughout the game: the �stack� of challenge cards before you becoming larger each time you win. Compromise cards in the stack count as zero towards your total. If you lose a challenge, discard your stack but keep the challenge card you played that challenge. This card becomes the first card in your next stack. If you are zapped, keep your stack but do not add it to your total. Discard the challenge card you play that challenge. If you lose that challenge, also discard your stack. If you lose your power, discard your stack.

Wild:
As a main player, you may play as many attack cards in a challenge as you wish. Their total, however, may not exceed forty. Play all the cards at the same time, face down. After cards are revealed, discard all of the cards you played.

Super:
You need never discard your stack, even if you lose the challenge or fail to deal. Add each Challenge card you play to your stack.


So yeah, even if original Indy loses with a N, or fails to deal, he loses the stack.

Rare is the hand that never sees a Negotiate.
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mar hawkman
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It's a good balancing thing to make Industrialist lose his stack when zapped. Warrior doesn't.
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Chris Mandilas
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marhawkman wrote:
It's a good balancing thing to make Industrialist lose his stack when zapped. Warrior doesn't.


You mean that whenever Industrialist would lose as a main player while zapped, he would lose his stacks? I don't know, that seems a bit odd and too specific. Clanky, if you will. Especially since you would technically be weakening an alien's power during a turn where his power is inexistent.

rjburns3 wrote:
From The Warp:

Industrialist wrote:
You have the power to build. If you play a challenge card in a challenge and you win or make a deal, do not discard it but leave it face up before you. You now add this card to your total the next time you are a main player. If you win again, do not discard either card but keep them both face up before you. You now add both cards to your total the next time you are a main player. This process continues throughout the game: the �stack� of challenge cards before you becoming larger each time you win. Compromise cards in the stack count as zero towards your total. If you lose a challenge, discard your stack but keep the challenge card you played that challenge. This card becomes the first card in your next stack. If you are zapped, keep your stack but do not add it to your total. Discard the challenge card you play that challenge. If you lose that challenge, also discard your stack. If you lose your power, discard your stack.

Wild:
As a main player, you may play as many attack cards in a challenge as you wish. Their total, however, may not exceed forty. Play all the cards at the same time, face down. After cards are revealed, discard all of the cards you played.

Super:
You need never discard your stack, even if you lose the challenge or fail to deal. Add each Challenge card you play to your stack.


So yeah, even if original Indy loses with a N, or fails to deal, he loses the stack.

Rare is the hand that never sees a Negotiate.


I am beginning to like this version a lot, but its Super Flare ramps it up to ridiculously strong. It seems every version of Industrialist has a flaw that makes it either unfair or very 'meh'.
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rjburns3 wrote:
From The Warp:

[q="Industrialist"]... If you lose a challenge, discard your stack but keep the challenge card you played that challenge....

So he always has at least one card in his stack, except at the beginning of the game, before he's been a main player. And based on the way this is written, he doesn't keep his card if he fails to deal.

And since Compromise (Negotiate) cards are worth 0, the only effect there is to take them out of circulation. I don't think I like that. The more deals he successfully makes, the less likely hi is to have to play a C (N), and the more it hoses other powers that rely on N's.
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Just a Bill
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rjburns3 wrote:
So yeah, even if original Indy loses with a N, or fails to deal, he loses the stack.
Omnievul wrote:
marhawkman wrote:
It's a good balancing thing to make Industrialist lose his stack when zapped.
You mean that whenever Industrialist would lose as a main player while zapped, he would lose his stacks?

No, he loses his stack only if he loses the encounter; it doesn't have anything to do with being zapped.

I understand the confusion here, though: the original text is not well organized and I had to read it several times to understand it. At first it sounds like you're going to keep your encounter card if you win/deal but lose it if you don't, but that's not what happens. The text actually presents three separate rules: keep your card if you win/deal; keep it also if you lose (or presumably fail to deal, though this is not specified); but lose it if you're zapped. (This could all be stated a lot more concisely, and I'll take a crack at that below.)

Unfortunately it's also pretty redundant, for example telling you twice that when you lose, you discard your stack. It also tells you stuff it doesn't need to, like stating that when zapped you don't add your stack to your total (duh) and having a whole sentence about compromise/negotiate cards counting as zero, when really only needed to say you add the stacked attacks to your total (which also handles unforeseen future card types like morph and retreat).

Here's what I think the original Industrialist is trying to do (with revisions based on the error Phil catches a few posts below):
INDUSTRIALIST
ADDS STACK OF WINNING CARDS
(original version by Beach & Rasfeld, converted to FFG parlance)

You have the power to Build. As a main player, when you should discard your encounter card at the end of any encounter, use this power to stack it faceup on this sheet instead. However, if you lost the encounter or failed to make a deal, first discard all other cards from this sheet before placing your encounter card here to start a new stack. Your stack is not part of your hand.

When you reveal an attack card as a main player, use this power to add or subtract the sum of all attack cards in your stack from to your total.

If this sheet is lost or turned facedown, discard your stack.
(Main Player Only) (Mandatory) (Reveal) (Resolution)


If you want to make this more like the FFG Industrialist, you can revise the first paragraph to end with "Your stack is not part of your hand and cannot be affected by other powers." But I'm not sure it makes a difference; I can't think of an alien power that could "affect" cards on sheets that would be constrained by this sentence; and why does this restrict alien "powers" but not other kinds of game effects, anyway? It's a badly written restriction (one of those well-intentioned "clarifications" that raises more questions than it answers), so personally I wouldn't duplicate it. "Not part of your hand" does the full job; leave it at that.

Omnievul wrote:
I am beginning to like this version a lot, but its Super Flare ramps it up to ridiculously strong. It seems every version of Industrialist has a flaw that makes it either unfair or very 'meh'.

Eh, I don't know about that. Super flares are supposed to be strong, and there are plenty of ways to cancel/steal them — not the least of which is compensation. In fact this is one of the reasons that strong multi-use flares are so good for the game: they make Negotiate cards very valuable and strategic.
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Just a Bill
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Sorry, I started composing my previous reply hours ago and got waylaid before submitting it; else I would have included these comments and not double-posted.

Phil Fleischmann wrote:
And based on the way this is written, he doesn't keep his card if he fails to deal.

I think their intention was that they wanted to treat failing to deal the same as losing. Their original wording seems to pretty clearly fall victim to the "dealing = winning" fallacy.

Phil Fleischmann wrote:
And since Compromise (Negotiate) cards are worth 0, the only effect there is to take them out of circulation. I don't think I like that.

Actually I think this is a good thing. Since a lot of cards could potentially pile up in the stack (especially with the Super flare), if only attacks went into the stack then there could be a negative impact on the cosmic deck when reshuffle time comes around if there are a disproportionate number of negotiate cards in the discard pile. So snagging everything "proportionally" seems like a wise precaution to me.
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Bill Martinson wrote:
Here's what I think the original Industrialist is trying to do:

...

When you reveal an attack card as a main player, use this power to add or subtract the sum of all attack cards in your stack from your total.

The red part, you added yourself. AFAIK, that does not appear in any previous version of the power.

Bill Martinson wrote:
Phil Fleischmann wrote:
And since Compromise (Negotiate) cards are worth 0, the only effect there is to take them out of circulation. I don't think I like that.

Actually I think this is a good thing. Since a lot of cards could potentially pile up in the stack (especially with the Super flare), if only attacks went into the stack then there could be a negative impact on the cosmic deck when reshuffle time comes around if there are a disproportionate number of negotiate cards in the discard pile. So snagging everything "proportionally" seems like a wise precaution to me.

Good point.
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Just a Bill
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Phil Fleischmann wrote:
Bill Martinson wrote:
When you reveal an attack card as a main player, use this power to add or subtract the sum of all attack cards in your stack from your total.

The red part, you added yourself. AFAIK, that does not appear in any previous version of the power.

Actually I (inadvertently) copied it from FFG (who copied it from Mayfair). But you're right that it's not part of Beach and Rasfeld's original design, and I should have noticed that I forgot to purge that feature from the hybrid I was working on. Good eye. I'll fix my post.
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mar hawkman
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Bill Martinson wrote:
rjburns3 wrote:
So yeah, even if original Indy loses with a N, or fails to deal, he loses the stack.
Omnievul wrote:
marhawkman wrote:
It's a good balancing thing to make Industrialist lose his stack when zapped.
You mean that whenever Industrialist would lose as a main player while zapped, he would lose his stacks?

No, he loses his stack only if he loses the encounter; it doesn't have anything to do with being zapped.
I got confused by the part that says "Discard your stacks if you lose your power." But there's a different part of the text that specifies this doesn't happen when zapped. :/
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