Kristóf Szelestei
Hungary
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The video: https://youtu.be/Lx5RL9_0yBA

What they did:
Using "Protector of Lorien" after the attack value was determined (included shadow cards) to save heroes.
Using "Radagast's Cunning" after encounter cards were revealed to make it even etc.
And similar stuff.
 
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Chris M
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That's quite a long video, so I don't have time to check exactly what points you might be referencing, but based on the text of your post:

1) You can use actions after each step of an enemy's attack (including after shadow card has been flipped and resolved, but before calculating the total combat damage that will be dealt)
2) There is an action window after you reveal cards and before resolving the quest.

Quote:
When resolving enemy attacks, the players follow these 4 steps, in order. Players may play event cards and take actions at the end of each step.

1. Choose an enemy.
2. Declare defender.
3. Resolve shadow effect.
4. Determine combat damage.

In the quest phase, the players attempt to make progress on the current stage of their quest. This phase is broken into three steps: 1) commit characters, 2) staging, and 3) quest resolution. Players have the opportunity to take actions and play event cards at the end of each step.

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Dominic B
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Imho this is the best reference sheet for a very detailed turn order with when to use actions and responses Clarified Turn Sequence and Quick Reference w/ FAQs. This document is almost mandatory because the reference in the rulebook is not detailed enough.

I didn't watch the video bust as far as I can see it:

There is no action window while flipping and resolving a shadow card, but it is allowed to take Actions after the shadow card is resolved and before combat damage is determined.

So you can't take a heal Action to save that character when flipping a shadow card which says "deal 2 damage to defending character", but you can use Protector of Lorien to raise the defending hero's defense after flipping a shadow card which says something like "attacking enemy gets +1 attack".

There is also an action window after the staging step in the quest phase.

So after you revealed all encounter cards during the staging step you are allowed to use Radagast's Cunning, snipe enemies out of the staging area (i.e. with Hands upon the Bow) etc.. This would then effectively reduce the threat in the staging area before the quest resolution.
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Kristóf Szelestei
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Thanks this fancy pdf helped nothing and it looks like noone really knows when can we use a player action and everyone use actions whenever they feel like to do so or they try to follow rules written by whoever to make their game somewhat harder. Nice.
 
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Kristóf Szelestei
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Leonce wrote:
So you can't take a heal Action to save that character when flipping a shadow card which says "deal 2 damage to defending character", but you can use Protector of Lorien to raise the defending hero's defense


What are you even talking about?? All right, obviously, english is not my basic language but what is the difference between the two?
 
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Josh Walton
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HOLD FAST wrote:
Leonce wrote:
So you can't take a heal Action to save that character when flipping a shadow card which says "deal 2 damage to defending character", but you can use Protector of Lorien to raise the defending hero's defense


What are you even talking about?? All right, obviously, english is not my basic language but what is the difference between the two?


The difference is that damage is applied immediately. So if a shadow card says "deal 2 damage to defending character" then there is no player action window to take steps to protect that character. It is simply dealt the two damage, and if it's enough damage to kill the defending character then the character dies and the attack will now be considered undefended.

However, if the shadow card applies an attack boost then the boost will be in effect when you get to the step of combat where you check the enemy's attack versus the character's defense. In between that step and the step where you actually apply the combat damage there IS a player action window. So in the responder's example before the enemy deals his combat damage to the defender the player could choose to activate his Protector of Lorien to increase his defender's defense. I hope that's more clear for you.

It sounds like the players in the video were taking legal actions. There are many player action windows in the game so you will often be able to take actions when you would like to. For example where you mention that they played Radagast's Cunning after staging in order to affect the threat in the staging area, that's a perfectly legal play. In fact, it's usually the best time to take those sorts of actions. Since there is a player action window in between staging the encounter cards and resolving the threat in the staging area, it is usually best to wait until then to activate cards like Radagast's Cunning to neutralize an enemy's threat or Faramir to increase your willpower. That way you are working with the most information possible before choosing which actions to take.

The main times in a round where you can't take actions are: during staging (no actions in between revealing each card), any time direct damage is dealt, after revealing a shadow card, at the beginning of the combat phase before Archery damage (if any) is applied, and at the beginning of the refresh phase before you would raise your threat. Those are the main times when it really matters that you can't take actions (not necessarily an exhaustive list, but just the times it seems most important to me that I can't take actions but I might otherwise like to). And just to be exhaustive I will point out that you can play Response effects like Test of Will or Hasty Stroke outside of player action windows but that's because they are Responses and not Actions.

Hopefully that helps you!
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Robin Munn

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HOLD FAST wrote:
... it looks like noone really knows when can we use a player action ...


You may think that, but that's not true. The rulebook isn't nearly as clear as it should be, but the FAQ goes a long way to clear things up, and it *is* possible to understand the "action window" rules. Don't despair. If noone really knew when you could use actions, then you'd get eight different replies from eight different experienced players when you asked "Can I use an action in situation X, Y or Z?" But in fact, the experienced players will all give you the same answer, because we have been able to figure it out. It's just that the rulebook is confusingly written, and you have to read the official FAQ to understand the rules better. (The "Clarified Turn Sequence" is based on reading the official FAQ; it's not just "rules written by whoever").

Don't worry, it is possible to get the rules right.
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Kristóf Szelestei
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toliveischrist77 wrote:
the shadow card applies an attack boost then the boost will be in effect when you get to the step of combat where you check the enemy's attack versus the character's defense. In between that step and the step where you actually apply the combat damage there IS a player action window.


Based on the Clarified Turn Sequence this is simply not true.

toliveischrist77 wrote:

they played Radagast's Cunning after staging in order to affect the threat in the staging area, that's a perfectly legal play. In fact, it's usually the best time to take those sorts of actions. Since there is a player action window in between staging the encounter cards and resolving the threat in the staging area, it is usually best to wait until then to activate cards like Radagast's Cunning to neutralize an enemy's threat or Faramir to increase your willpower. That way you are working with the most information possible before choosing which actions to take.


I understand this one, although its killing a serious aspect of the game for me.


 
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Josh Walton
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HOLD FAST wrote:
toliveischrist77 wrote:
the shadow card applies an attack boost then the boost will be in effect when you get to the step of combat where you check the enemy's attack versus the character's defense. In between that step and the step where you actually apply the combat damage there IS a player action window.


Based on the Clarified Turn Sequence this is simply not true.


Hmmm, yeah looking at that I don't see that you could. However, in the core rulebook on page 18 under the heading "Resolving Enemy Attacks" it says players may play events and take actions at the end of each step. So in between step 3 "Resolve Shadow Effect" and step 4 "Determine Combat Damage" a player could use effects like Protector of Lorien.


Edited after reading comment below.
 
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Tim Franklin
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It looks fine from the Clarified Turn Sequence to me. 6.2.1.3, Resolve Shadow Effect, is yellow, which means you can use actions or play events at the end of this step.

So, if your shadow card is "deal 2 damage", that happens straight away. You can take an action at the end of the step, at which point damage has already happened.

If your shadow card is "enemy gets +1 attack", the modifier happens straight away, but the attack resolution doesn't. The enemy is sitting there at the end of 6.2.1.3 with its attack one larger than it was at the start of 6.2.1.3, but no damage has been dealt yet.

At the end of 6.2.1.3, you trigger Protector of Lorien to increase the defender's defence.

Then 6.2.1.4 happens, and you actually apply the damage taking into account the modifiers from both the shadow card *and* the Protector.
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Kristóf Szelestei
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Thank you guys for your efforts teaching me this game. Its funny that I never had problems understanding a board game and the rules seemed very easy at first. I think I'm finally getting somewhere. Although I think it will be hard for a while to not make the game unintentionally easier or harder by misplacing action windows.
I also want to apologise for my above comments, I was super salty when came home last night (which is nothing to do with this game) and I was also drunk...
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Mike De Groote
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ah drunk gaming and replying drunk on a forum. a cocktail more volatile than the current dutch and turkish situation :)
 
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Kristóf Szelestei
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I dont play games like this drunk. I hardly even get drunk anymore. Also I dont have anger problems
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Doug Poskitt
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Hi everyone,

Sorry to pop up with my post a few weeks after the original dialogues, but as a noob I had a question and found it quite daunting to search through all the posts related to this issue. I came across this one and it seemed the best fit.

The rulebook seems contradictory so am I right in treating the latest FAQ (1.8 - 26/1/2016) as the arbiter of any such contradiction?

The chart in the rulebook indicates one player action in the Quest phase. The FAQ chimes in with:

LOTR Core Set Rulebook
Phase 3: Quest Page 14
The final sentence of the first paragraph in this section
should read: “Players have the opportunity to take
actions and play event cards at the beginning and
ending of each step.”


So, in my case ... having committed my characters to the quest, can I play the event card "Radagast's cunning" at the end of step 1 before I reveal cards from the encounter deck? It is quite important, as following the rulebook chart, it seems to indicate that a player action occurs after the encounter deck cards have been revealed.

I would have liked to have played Radagast's cunning in light of the fact that the encounter deck reveal step threw up the treachery card "Eyes of the Forest".

While I played it as being the recipient of tough luck and discarding all my event cards in response to the treachery card (including Radagast), I thought about it for a while and checked the FAQ. It would seem, from my reading, that I could have played Radagast's cunning before I revealed the encounter cards.
 
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Koen Hendrickx
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It's a tricky one,

you could have played it on both occassions, before revealing encounter cards, and having bad luck of drawing "Eyes of the forest", or after revealing encounter cards with the knowledge of which cards are in the staging area and thus if you need Radagast Cunning
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Paul Owen
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toliveischrist77 wrote:
The main times in a round where you can't take actions are: during staging (no actions in between revealing each card)


Uh oh, is that true? In a two-player game, I'm in the habit of using Denethor's ability to look at the top card of the Encounter Deck after the first staging card has been revealed but before the second, so that I have the most information possible before deciding whether to bury that top card or not. Do I understand that there is no action window between staging cards? (It doesn't look that way, upon closer review of the "Clarified Turn Sequence.") I guess that means I have to invoke Denethor before the first card gets revealed.
 
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Dale Stephenson
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There's typically not a window during the reveal of cards, the rare exception is when a reveal card causes something to happen that opens an action window. For example, if the first card revealed caused an immediate attack from staging, that would open up action windows after each step -- and you could use that for actions like using Denethor to scry the deck. However, that's going to be a rare event.

My favorite time to use Denethor is immediately before the Refresh phase, if he hasn't been used for defense.
 
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Paul Owen
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dalestephenson wrote:
My favorite time to use Denethor is immediately before the Refresh phase, if he hasn't been used for defense.


Oh, I like that idea. I always regret not having him available as a defender.
 
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Marcel Stipetic
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Quote:
Uh oh, is that true? In a two-player game, I'm in the habit of using Denethor's ability to look at the top card of the Encounter Deck after the first staging card has been revealed but before the second, so that I have the most information possible before deciding whether to bury that top card or not. Do I understand that there is no action window between staging cards? (It doesn't look that way, upon closer review of the "Clarified Turn Sequence.") I guess that means I have to invoke Denethor before the first card gets revealed.


The problem during staging, as concerns Denethor, is that his special ability is an Action, so it cannot be used once staging begins (unless, as pointed out, an action window is created).

Eleanor, on the other hand, has a Response as a special ability, so she can be played at anytime during staging. Too bad you can't equip her with Unexpected Courage and use her twice!
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