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Virgin Queen» Forums » Rules

Subject: De sores and flooding rss

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Juan Pardo
Spain
Madrid
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Hi all we had two questions from last games:

Does de Sores ability works against portuguese colonies or only against spanish fortresses?

Also the army affected by flooding: it si considered as having lost an assault and cant move any further that impulse? Or can move and put under siege the same city with remaining CP?

Thanks in advance.
 
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Carsten Jorgensen
Denmark
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The Portuguese settlements don't have a fortress - they just add a defence die for each in the zone, if Portugal is the target. So they also roll against de Sores.

Flooding just says to retreat - nothing about having lost the assault. Though actually the rules only talk about not being able to move, if units lost a field battle (so different from an assault). So you can move right back to the same fortified space. That is if you have the CP left to do it (though it might not be a good idea depending how many mercenaries you lost to Flooding).
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Rob Davidson
United States
Orland Park
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deepC wrote:
Hi all we had two questions from last games:

Does de Sores ability works against portuguese colonies or only against spanish fortresses?

Also the army affected by flooding: it si considered as having lost an assault and cant move any further that impulse? Or can move and put under siege the same city with remaining CP?

Thanks in advance.


Re: DeSores

A Portuguese 'settlement' di(c)e are NOT fortresses; based on this, would hold that it's just the Spanish Fortresses that are neutralized by him. Note, the Portuguese are called out separately from the Spanish forts in the calculation of defense di(c)e in 16.5.

Re: Flooding (and any retreat due to failed assault 'breaking' a siege)

At first I thought not right off, but checking on that seems to be incorrect AS WRITTEN. I thought not due to the retreat aspect...but checking the wording says "...• No army leader or unit may participate in a Move action if it was part of a formation that lost a field battle earlier in the impulse." Bullet in 13.1

So, based on that, would currently say that if repulsed by 'Flooding' it would stand that this formation can spend remaining CP on movement in that impulse as written.

Now, whether this was the intent is not clear; either for this card or for other circumstances that might cause this to occur. To expand:

1. Situation might be something like this: enemy key or FSpace adjacent to attackers home territory. A force of 3 troops and a '2' leader attempt assault of 2 defenders; 4die to 3die...and attacker gets 0 hits and defender gets one. Siege broken and attacker retreats away to home space; as currently written, the attacker can raise a Merc and move back onto the space to re-establish the siege if sufficient CP remain.
A 'Flooding' card play would fall into that category.

The main question to answer would be is this what was intended? Frankly, I have played this quite a bit and not come up with this question before that I can recall. Kind of always had it burned into memory that "active formation that retreats is DONE moving for the remeinder of the impulse". But, I have never had Flooding played against/for me and don't do assaults when chance of 'self-breaking' is there (that I recall).

Personally, I would say that 'retreat' of any kind (field/assault) should end movement for units/leader that remain for that impulse. I don't see why a failed assault/broken siege should be different than lost field battle that I started...the demoralization would be the same.

But, I am not an official on this and welcome more direction. Perhaps I am overlooking a clause somewhere. Perhaps it was this way in HIS and missed porting over to VQ. Will have to go back and check on notes, etc.
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Juan Pardo
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Thanks for the answers.

Regading de sores it was almost 100% sure but wanted somebody else to confirm the case so we dont have any more semantic arguments about it.

Regarding flooding I think that the way the rules are written should be obvious that the army could beactivate again. But having the card played twice in the same game as the event it was pretty lame. If played with more than 1CP card the army would move again and lay siege to the city, maybe getting some cps to replace lost mercs. It seems that the way we played it gives you one more round to survive (only good id it was the last card from the assauling player) but if that is not the case its just a delay.

I would like to have a more devastating effect and leave the retreating army blocked for the whole turn, they lost part of the merc forces and all their siege train is supposed to have been destroyed as well and this would be reflected in losing the turn replacing all their lost equipment.
 
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Carsten Jorgensen
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There are quite a few events, where it is very situational, when it actually makes sence to play them for the event. I see no need to change it, just because it is usually best to play Flooding for the CP.

To have it in the deck means one more card a player need to worry about, before sending a big merc army into Netherlands. And the good use of Flooding does come against a big merc army - or at least against an army where taking out half the merc will make it impossible to re-enter the fortified space with any remaining CP. Most cards are 2 CP I think, so often there won't be CP left to replenish the lost merc. Or if played against someone else than Protestant, they won't even have the option to build merc (unless it is against France or HRE and the siege is bordering their own home space, but that must be rear).

So it is best as an event if played by the Protestant - which is very historical, from what I have read, with the Dutch being the ones to actually use this trick.


About being able to move again. I never played HIS, so cannot talk about it from that view. Only from theme - and there it doesn't seem quite so hard to me, that an army must give up a siege. It wasn't routed, as one might say after it lost a field battle. That is only the case if it lost a relief battle (and so there was a field battle). If forced to break-off a siege, I imagine it would more be like "ah - we are now nolonger enough men to fully cut of the defender, so we better withdraw". No point in staying, if you cannot prevent the besieged from getting the supplies they need.
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