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Subject: Poll: Is Hanabi a coop? rss

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Russ Williams
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Poll: Is Hanabi a coop game?
Is Hanabi a coop?
I don't know the game so I cannot say.
Yes, Hanabi is a coop.
No, Hanabi is not a coop.
I know Hanabi, but I am unsure whether I'd call it a coop or not.
      406 answers
Poll created by russ


I will explain this question later if people are curious. I don't want to influence the answers now.

Edited to add (based on the first comment replying): Yes, of course by "coop", I mean what is also known as a "cooperative game" or "co-operative game".

Edited to further clarify explicitly: The poll is not about spelling. It is about meaning. The point of the poll would be the same regardless of whether it says "coop" or "co-op" or "cooperative" or whatever.
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Ben Greig
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I mean this seems a little simple to ask, assuming that your actually asking co-op instead of coop,

although its a simple question for coop as well
I don't believe Hanabi can be used as a cage to keep poultry

You'd need a much bigger box and even something like Gloomhaven isn't going to cut it
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John
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Coop = "Co-operative play encourages or requires players to work together to beat the game."

I don't see how Hanabi can't be a coop. You either win together or lose together, and you have to work together to do so.
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Greg
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I have to admit I am curious about the reason for the poll as the answer seems fairly obvious to me or am I missing something?
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This is a coop game


COOP!!!
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It's not a coop game.. it's a co-op game. And yes, there is a BIG difference. For example:

Their tomoatoes

And

They're tomatoes

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Robert Bracey
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Presumably you have some alternative definition you find useful. Surely better to lead with that, explain why you think it gives an interesting perspective, and then if you feel the need poll users to see if they found it useful...
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RobertBr wrote:
Presumably you have some alternative definition you find useful. Surely better to lead with that, explain why you think it gives an interesting perspective, and then if you feel the need poll users to see if they found it useful...

Don't try and figure out Russ's end goals. I've tried many times and failed even more times than I've tried. (How is that possible you ask? It's higher math. I don't understand it. He does). Russ is a man of mystery, two steps above the rest of us. (And by steps I mean staircases.) I'm just waiting. Waiting. Waiting until the mastermind reveals what's behind the curtain of his giant bulging fluorescent brain pan. Maybe it's chocolate. Maybe it's Food Chain Magnate Legacy. Maybe it's my lost sister Gretel (who I didn't know I had.) I don't know. Nobody knows. Nobody can know.

Except Russ.
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skutsch wrote:
Except Russ.


And David.

~V
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Alextnorris wrote:
It's not a coop game.. it's a co-op game. And yes, there is a BIG difference. For example:

Their tomoatoes

And

They're tomatoes

If you consult most dictionaries, you'll find cooperative as the standard. If you want to go old school, like the New Yorker, it's coöperative, like naïve, coïncidence, etc The diaereses (not technically an umlaut) indicates the vowel is pronounced. Since coöp is an adjective and coop is a noun, context should make it unambiguous.

I rather doubt this is where Russ is going.
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russ wrote:


I will explain this question later if people are curious. I don't want to influence the answers now.


You have 129 responses and 97.7% - Yes.

Get explaining
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aquillo wrote:
I mean this seems a little simple to ask, assuming that your actually asking co-op instead of coop,

although its a simple question for coop as well
I don't believe Hanabi can be used as a cage to keep poultry

You'd need a much bigger box and even something like Gloomhaven isn't going to cut it



Very, very, tiny chickens.
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MilkyJoe241 wrote:
Coop = "Co-operative play encourages or requires players to work together to beat the game."

I don't see how Hanabi can't be a coop. You either win together or lose together, and you have to work together to do so.
No...

...a "co-op" fits the definition above...

...as others have noted in this thread, a "coop" houses poultry.

Pete (wonders what people have against using necessary punctuation)
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plezercruz wrote:
MilkyJoe241 wrote:
Coop = "Co-operative play encourages or requires players to work together to beat the game."

I don't see how Hanabi can't be a coop. You either win together or lose together, and you have to work together to do so.
No...

...a "co-op" fits the definition above...

...as others have noted in this thread, a "coop" houses poultry.

Pete (wonders what people have against using necessary punctuation)


There are also people whose first language is not English. Until I read this thread, I didn't know the word “coop“ and assumed it would be correct as an abbre iation, since the German equivalent is “kooperativ“. So it might be a simple case of not having mastered the finer details of a foreign language.
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Russ Williams
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OK, I see 150 people familiar with Hanabi have answered.* Thanks very much!

And since some people are curious, I'll explain.

First, to clear up one distracting silly confusion: it was not about spelling ("coop" or "co-op"). This is not about the spelling (which might be a fine geeky subject for a different discussion.)

It was a sincere question about the meaning, i.e. what a coop/co-op/cooperative/cooperative/coöperative game is.


Second, I do not have some "alternative definition" to propose. Rather, I believe that I use the term as most people do - and the poll confirmed that.

---

The reason I made the poll was that in a recent discussion I began to wonder whether in fact I was not using the term as most people do, so I wanted to do a quick sanity-check. Specifically:

Someone said that every coop game can be played solitaire. I mentioned that although this is true of many coop games, it is not true of all coop games, due to player-specific hidden info and limits on communication, and I mentioned Hanabi as an example.

To my bafflement and surprise, I was told that Hanabi is not a coop, because:

* "It isn't really a cooperative game because you are still hiding information from other players".

* "And while you are all working toward a common goal, you're not allowed to fully cooperate in order to do it. The rules for how you identify cards to your teammates puts a restriction on the cooperation that is allowed. It's more semi-cooperative without being competitive."

Which completely surprised me, and seemed obviously at odds with how most people use the term "coop". So if it was just one person, I'd have written it off as a very idiosyncratic personal idea of what at a word means, a linguistic extreme outlier, (like the recent thread where one person insists that games like Chess and I-go-you-go wargames are "not interactive").

But here two people were immediately telling me that Hanabi is not a coop because of the player-specific secret info!

So I thought "WTF? Is there some controversy about the basic meaning of 'coop'? I thought pretty much everyone uses it to mean games with a single team of players all working together, trying to collectively win... Is this not true, and many people use it to imply an additional requirement that there is no secret info and players can freely discuss as a hive-mind, so that the game could be played solitaire?

Thus I made the poll to see what "most people" think: is Hanabi a coop or not?

As I am writing this, I see 149 people say "Yes" and 1 person says "No". (I wonder if that "No" was just a quibble about the spelling and was someone thinking "No, it is a co-op"...)

The poll confimed for me that I understand correctly how most people use the word "coop" when describing games, so thanks.

---

*PS: Thanks also to the 2 people unfamiliar with Hanabi who answered that they are unfamiliar with it. It is interesting to get an idea of how many people know or don't know a given game, even though that was not the main purpose of the poll.
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Benj Davis
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They make interesting points. They're wrong, but interesting.
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Jlerpy wrote:
They make interesting points. They're wrong, but interesting.


It seems like by a similar symmetric argument they could argue that most competitive multiplayer games (Catan, Risk, 18xx, etc) are "not really competitive", because sometimes you cooperate with some of your opponents (trading, alliances, shared stock holdings in companies, etc).
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Wouter
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Secret info and not being allowed to fully discuss the info you have are just the obstacles of the game. As long as you have the same goal and you win or lose together it's a co-op in my opinion
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wspier wrote:
Secret info and not being allowed to fully discuss the info you have are just the obstacles of the game. As long as you have the same goal and you win or lose together it's a co-op in my opinion


Excellent statement.

So it sums up to clearing the definition : is the "co-op" game a 100% cooperative/0% hiding game where everybody shares the same goal OR a game where everybody shares the same goal even when allowing some rules that twist the game ?

Another good question for you, Russ : is The Game a cooperative game ?
 
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If the result of a game is "all win, or all lose", or "this is the players' score", I can't see their position of asserting it's not a co-op.

I wonder what might be their opinion of Mysterium?
 
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Jlerpy wrote:
They make interesting points. They're wrong, but interesting.


They are wrong in arguing that Hanabi is not a co-operative game. They are right in showing it has different characteristics than most other fully cooperative games.

I started once creating a classification scheme for games based on number of players, cooperativeness (including traitors and hidden teams) and related matters. I gave up because to be accurate it got so finely divided - even limited to games I know (though I know quite a lot) - as to be essentially useless. This point regarding Hanabi would be another detail in it though.

(If you want some other tricky games, consider A Study in Emerald - hidden teams, but individual wins. In first edition sometimes with the ability to change teams. There are some conplicated options in BSG with all the expansions too.)
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Stephen Cooper
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russ wrote:
It seems like by a similar symmetric argument they could argue that most competitive multiplayer games (Catan, Risk, 18xx, etc) are "not really competitive", because sometimes you cooperate with some of your opponents (trading, alliances, shared stock holdings in companies, etc).

Cooperation is a useful tactic to satisfy the ultimate strategy of crushing your opponents.
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Trantor42 wrote:
plezercruz wrote:
MilkyJoe241 wrote:
Coop = "Co-operative play encourages or requires players to work together to beat the game."

I don't see how Hanabi can't be a coop. You either win together or lose together, and you have to work together to do so.
No...

...a "co-op" fits the definition above...

...as others have noted in this thread, a "coop" houses poultry.

Pete (wonders what people have against using necessary punctuation)

There are also people whose first language is not English. Until I read this thread, I didn't know the word “coop“ and assumed it would be correct as an abbre iation, since the German equivalent is “kooperativ“. So it might be a simple case of not having mastered the finer details of a foreign language.

In English, cooperative is not accepted as a general term for an activity where people cooperate: it is a specific organization for commerce. See https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cooperative well down the list of definitions.

Cooperative in the sense of a type of game, like the term meeple, has not been accepted into general English usage. Both are "terms of art", the art being gaming.

Coop is a fine way to abbreviate the gaming term cooperative; if you use a German keyboard it is quite convenient for you to use coöp, but you may confuse some people: few people are familiar with diaereses. But, no reason exists to use coöp or co-op unless the game is in danger of being confused with a small home for chickens.

Co-operative is not accepted in US disctionaries; it is barely accepted as a UK alternative by Oxford. Here on BGG, they'll all be understood, barring chickens.

Maybe we need a, "Beware chicken co-ops!" microbadge.
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Robert Bracey
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russ wrote:

Someone said that every coop game can be played solitaire. I mentioned that although this is true of many coop games, it is not true of all coop games, ...


Aha... that is not an entirely unreasonable definition. There is definitely a class of modern games (post-Pandemic - before then Knizia's one go and the handful of others were not a class) which can be played solitaire but are in fact often not played solitaire with specific players taking authority for particular parts of the game (I will be responsible for all of the hearts, clubs are yours - in a more conventional solitaire game). Hannabi is clearly not part of that class (though things like Deathwing are more ambiguous).
Since that class is very, very, close to what I would call a 'pure' co-op* using the term co-op for your definition is not wildly unreasonable (it does not describe the characteristic, which is generally a good thing with ontological things like this, but it has a lot of overlap with common useage).

And I definitely think the poll was silly. You should have led with that story and asked how many people think the definition was absurb, interesting, reasonable but not agree, etc... the poll was framed to create an echo chamber.

*In a 'pure' co-op when all of the players win by achieving the same mutual objective. A 'traitor' co-op exists when one or more player wins by preventing that, and if the traitor was removed you would be able to play the game as 'pure' co-op, albeit probably too easy, so Shadows over Camelot and Battlestar Galactica are 'traitor' co-ops while Resistance is just a team game and not a co-op at all.
 
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RobertBr wrote:
And I definitely think the poll was silly. You should have led with that story and asked how many people think the definition was absurb, interesting, reasonable but not agree, etc... the poll was framed to create an echo chamber.

Whereas I felt that if I led with the story, then I would be framing the poll and discussion to "create an echo chamber". So I intentionally asked a simple neutral question without trying to influence people's answers, i.e. to try to see what are people's natural responses without me giving any direction or influence to them.
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