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Wrathborne Champions» Forums » Rules

Subject: Defense Countdown rss

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Kevin Perales
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After rereading the countdown rules a few times, we finally figured out how states works. With things like poison and bless, it makes sense that you'd apply the effect during the player cooldown phase and then reduce the number by one. For defense, however, the concept didn't make sense.

Example, I play a card that gives all players 2 defense. We continue our turns, then at the end of the players turns we do player countdown and everyone's defense goes down to 1, THEN the minion phase happens. So defense cards end up being half as effective.

This means that using the defend default action doesn't actually do anything since you lose it before the minion turn anyway.

We played it that defense gets counted down during the minion countdown phase and it played a lot smoother.

Thoughts?
 
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Greg O'Connor
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I dont think defense gets counted down at all. I think its just till end of turn.
 
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Lawrence Moy
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We had the same problem as the OP. Not only was the reduction of defense before sector activation an issue like the OP said (because Shield 1 cards had no effect unless the Battle Deck told players to take damage), but it led to an awkward situation:

The Warrior default defends for +2 Defense, which is reduced to 1 Defense during the Player Countdown, before Sector Activation. She is then hit and reveals 2 Taunt Cards (each of which adds +1 Defense as a death effect), and now has a total 3 Defense. Does that mean that by sheer luck of the draw, 3 different sources have resulted in 3 Defense now, then 2 Defense next turn, and then 1 Defense the turn after that? Suddenly stacked Defense actions seem infinitely better.

Our solution was like the OP's. We played one game where the Shield reduction resolved during Player Countdown, which stank, and then one where reduction resolved during Minion Countdown, which made things much better. Additionally, we decided to track each SOURCE of Defense and reduce them separately.

This meant that in the case above, the default defense's +2 Defense was reduced to 1 defense for next turn, but the 2x +1 Defenses from Taunt's death effect are removed during the minion countdown phase and do not persist to the next turn.

I hope that wasn't too complicated!
 
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John Poniske the younger
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We ran into the same issue.

Played a test of the newly cobbled together print and play with my roommate and we made it through the goblin starter two player and we thought he armor thing was wierd.

Then we tried again with the full rules and (still 2 player) just couldn't make it past the first round against the second creature because we couldn't stop any damage with defense as written.

IMO the rule as written makes zero sense because of how it affects defense which then renders enter power cards pretty much useless, like the Enchanters ability that gives everyone 1 defense which then immediately disappears. This has to either be an oversight or lack of clarity in the rules.

I personally see three reasonable solutions:

1. What Lawrence said just tick down defense during the enemy countdown phase. The only issue I have with this is that it arbitrarily moves one part of a phase to another part away from like actions players will already be taking.

2. Implement Defense like poison tokens, each defense point is a 2 point token that gets stepped down. so getting 2 defense would be 2 defense tokens on teh 2 sides, they both get flipped to the 1 side leaving a net total of 2 defense for the minion activations which will then be reduced to nothing on the following turn. This works but conceptually a little weird and awkward.

3. Completely change the functionality of defense and Only have defense reduced after damage is taken, but have it reduce each time after damage is taken. This both reduces teh effectiveness of defense but also guarantees at least minimum effect from every point of defense you get. Clearly not the intended approach but something i'm toyign with.

I think the closest to the text is solution 1. Clearly i hope the Devs will chime in on this as it's the only real rules issue we had other than 2 player balance issues though more attempts are required to test that out.
 
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John Poniske the younger
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kperales wrote:
After rereading the countdown rules a few times, we finally figured out how states works. With things like poison and bless, it makes sense that you'd apply the effect during the player cooldown phase and then reduce the number by one. For defense, however, the concept didn't make sense.

Example, I play a card that gives all players 2 defense. We continue our turns, then at the end of the players turns we do player countdown and everyone's defense goes down to 1, THEN the minion phase happens. So defense cards end up being half as effective.

This means that using the defend default action doesn't actually do anything since you lose it before the minion turn anyway.

We played it that defense gets counted down during the minion countdown phase and it played a lot smoother.

Thoughts?


I noticed this morning that this was answered in the KS comments by the developer and will be changed in teh next version of the beta rules:

Randover Games wrote:
I covered Defense a bit in Update 21. Here is the bit that is relevant (and is being updated for 3.7 rules)
When should DEFENSE countdown? - Short answer: DEFENSE reduces at the end of the turn at the same time that the Wrath Token moves, NOT during the Player Countdown phase. Long Answer: This is entirely my fault for not updating the Beta Rules, but DEFENSE used to just be a turn length effect and not a State. We changed it so players could more effectively tank and it works wonderfully, but doesn't fit the normal State rotation. We have a fix for this going in the 3.7 rules revision, but for now, simply reduce it at the end of the round.
It should not be exhausted on use, with 2 Defense providing a 2 point reduction in all damage until the end of the turn when it counts down to 1 Defense. This is our way of preventing players from becoming invulnerable tanks, while still letting them fortify themselves from one round to the next with effort.
Monster Defense values written on the board (which will be icons on the final version) are permanent unless acted upon by another sector (normal a "Disable" ability removing Defense), Battle Deck card, or Player card (none of these exist in the game yet, but one of the expansion weapons can alter minion defense temporarily).
If a Minion games MORE Defense (like the Fortified Brigands Minion Special), then it ticks down like the player Defense at the end of the turn until it gets back to 0 or it's default defense.
Like player Defense, Minion defense blocks all attack damage unless the attack says it bypasses some (like the bow) or damage is delivered by a state (like Poison).
Defense is a bit of a thorn in my side because the Beta rules aren't as polished as everything else about it, but I promise the 3.7 update will be VASTLY clearer. I just have to find time to actually complete them (which I promise I am trying to do ASAP, stupid day job).
 
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Lawrence Moy
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Awesome! Thanks for the update!

I could also see Defense being a 1 turn only thing, but it seems that the countdown application won out.

Now the other question is: does defense stack? In other words, if 3 sources give +1 Defense during a turn, are they treated as:
1) a cumulative +3 bonus that ticks down to a +2 at the end of turn, OR
2) 3 separate +1 bonuses that all tick down to 0 at the end of turn?
 
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Ben Stiers
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Hey Lawrence!

Sorry for not answering this sooner!

They would actually add up to be +3 Defense that ticks down to +1 at the end of turn.

Let me explain!

Each of our tokens have two sides, a 1 side and a 2 side. At the end of the round, Defense rolls over like all states, with each token showing 1 removed and each token showing 2 switching to 1.

So, in the example you posed, source one would give them +1 Defense and a Defense token with the 1 side face up. Source two would give them +1 Defense which would let them flip their token over to show a 2. Source three would give them +1 Defense which would need to be represented as a new token with the 1 side up.

At the end of the round, the 1 side token would be removed and the 2 side token would be flipped over to show 1.

This means player and temporary Minion Defense effectively always reduces by half (rounded down), each turn. If you have 1 it goes to 0, 2 it goes to 1, 3 it goes to 1, 4 it goes to 2, 5 it goes to 2, 6 it goes to 3, etc.

This means carefully stacking your defense skills to go out on the same turn (say Warrior Weapon Defense and Enchanter Enchant Armor) will give the Warrior 3 Defense over two turns (2 Defense on turn one, 1 Defense on turn two) which is far more powerful than using one one turn and another the next.

These are the sort of little interactions we are going for to add depth to "tanking" in the game (and another reason why the Sword and Shield and Warrior abilities are so strong because anything that can get you to +2 Defense will have residual bonuses).

Hopefully this helps!

Bem
 
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