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Subject: A few final questions. rss

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Sandy
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I've played about 15+ games of Cry Havoc now. Rather great time, and I feel like I'm just scratching the surface. Of course, things have got to come up in a rules-heavy games like this, and of course things came up today (they really came up previously but I had forgotten about them).

1. Can you stack multiple watchtower and artillery tokens? For example, if you build and activate both on themselves for 6 wrenches on action 1, then activate both with 2 wrenches on action 2 and then activate both with 2 wrenches on action 3, do you end up with 3 watchtower tokens potentially in the same region where the watchtower is, and 3 artillery tokens potentially in the same region where the artillery is (6 tokens total where the 2 buildings are if they're in the same region)?

2. Can you "demolish" a building and "rebuild" it somewhere else in the (extremely unlikely but possible) event that you want to rebuild one of your three buildings somewhere else? If you can "demolish/rebuild," do you also get to activate the new building that you just built since it's "new" (in the even more extremely unlikely but possible scenario you really have that many wrenches)? So if you had built your 3 extractors as pilgrims, you can play 6 wrenches to activate all 3 of them, "demolish and rebuild" one of them (assuming you have a 4th region you control without a battle, i.e. ready to be built on) and activate the 4th/rebuilt building with a wrench to effectively get 4 extractor activations in one action?

3. When machines shred the last attacker or defender in a declared battle, I get that the token gets removed immediately, machines get control immediately, and a battle does not happen. HOWEVER, how "immediate" is immediate? Does it happen before the build action is completed? So if you played 7 wrenches, you can shred the last guy, then before your build action is over, build and activate e.g. a factory and shred drones in the region where there was supposed to be a battle prior to your action (where the last opponent got shredded and the battle token disappeared)?

I'm sure it's not the end for all future questions, but this should satisfy me for now :-P .
 
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Mário Fernando
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Hello!
15+ plays that's great I've made about 4/6 :S So I guess I wont speek for my experience.

Before I give you my anser, let me give you this https://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/140269/cry-havoc-full-con... it goes to the skill and structure guide that Grant Rodiek himself made. This helped me a lot, so I think it will be the anser to most of you questions.

1. Yes, up to 3 per structure. Just dont forget the correct way to use them and build their structures.

2. No. Only the machines have the skill to move strutures and the skill to convert structures into minis (and vice versa)

3. It's as soon as the dead mini is removed from the board to the respective player reserve. So, in your example, you said: "Does it happen before the build action is completed?" well it depends of the strutures you are talking about. Assuming you activate(and not build as you say) a shred drone in the correct way, you then remove the battle token, put the machine control token, and proced whith the build/activate as you wish. That being said, i'm not 100% sure about this one, but this would be the way I would play. I do not have time to go to the manual to confirm, just wait a bit longer and somebody with better understanding of the game will come.
 
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Van Willis
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HeatSurge wrote:
3. When machines shred the last attacker or defender in a declared battle, I get that the token gets removed immediately, machines get control immediately, and a battle does not happen. HOWEVER, how "immediate" is immediate? Does it happen before the build action is completed? So if you played 7 wrenches, you can shred the last guy, then before your build action is over, build and activate e.g. a factory and shred drones in the region where there was supposed to be a battle prior to your action (where the last opponent got shredded and the battle token disappeared)?


For number three The answer depends on whether you controlled the region before it became a battle region. If so you may build a building there after activating your shred drones. The building rules clearly state that you must control a region at the start of your build action to build a structure there (so for example you can't chain airfields with the humans in one build action). If you already had buildings there I can't see why you couldn't activate then now if you have more wrenches to do so.
 
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So... not really great answers. I think 1. is answered in the "word FAQ" which I guess came out after the "Official FAQ" so there's 2 FAQs for the game now? :-P ... so anyway, I'm pretty sure that you can put multiple e.g. artillery tokens in the same region, e.g. fire the artillery over and over on itself for up to 3 tokens in the same region as the arty. Of course I know you can't fire it when a battle has been declared :-P . So now, I think I'm pretty happy with 1. being answered and I'll go forward playing it that way (allowing multiple arty/watchtower tokens of the same type in the same region).

For 2., I don't think the answer Grant gave in the other thread is really satisfactory, because you're not really "moving" the building. It's kind of semantics as well, but technically what I'm proposing is you're "rebuilding" or just "building" another building of the same kind. What makes me think that might be ok is that you can fire a 4th token with arty or draw a 4th card with matrix and "replace" one of the other 3... so it kind of makes me think if you want to build a 4th building, you can also "replace" one of the other 3. Unfortunately, that opens up that can of worms where since it's a "newly built" building you can activate it, so you can get 4, possibly 5 activations (if you rebuild 2 buildings) if you play a LOT of wrenches. For 5 activations you'd need 3(activate the original 3)+4(rebuild 2 of them)+2(activate the new 2), so 9 total :-D . Also, you'd have to control 5 regions able to build buildings on. Very edge case, but I need an answer because it has come up.

For 3., it actually DOESN'T matter whether you controlled the region before it was a battle region, because I quote from the manual: "If for any reason during the Action phase, all Units from one player in a Region with a Battle token are eliminated prior to Battle Resolution, a Battle does not take place. Immediately remove the Battle token and place a Control token for the player with Units remaining."

So actually it doesn't matter who controlled the region. It says IMMEDIATELY, and it also says DURING the action phase. So scenario: I move 4 machines on action 1 into human region with 1 mini. Battle is declared, token appears. Humans still control. Action 2 I shred the human. It says even DURING the action I IMMEDIATELY remove the battle token AND place a control token for the player with units remaining (machines in this case, so humans immediately, during the build action, lose control and machines gain control before the build action is over (?) ). I mean, it really really sounds like I shred and then I can use any other wrenches to now build into the newly controlled region, but I want some confirmation, because it's a strange case which unfortunately does come up somewhat frequently...
 
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Van Willis
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HeatSurge wrote:
So... not really great answers. I think 1. is answered in the "word FAQ" which I guess came out after the "Official FAQ" so there's 2 FAQs for the game now? :-P ... so anyway, I'm pretty sure that you can put multiple e.g. artillery tokens in the same region, e.g. fire the artillery over and over on itself for up to 3 tokens in the same region as the arty. Of course I know you can't fire it when a battle has been declared :-P . So now, I think I'm pretty happy with 1. being answered and I'll go forward playing it that way (allowing multiple arty/watchtower tokens of the same type in the same region).

For 2., I don't think the answer Grant gave in the other thread is really satisfactory, because you're not really "moving" the building. It's kind of semantics as well, but technically what I'm proposing is you're "rebuilding" or just "building" another building of the same kind. What makes me think that might be ok is that you can fire a 4th token with arty or draw a 4th card with matrix and "replace" one of the other 3... so it kind of makes me think if you want to build a 4th building, you can also "replace" one of the other 3. Unfortunately, that opens up that can of worms where since it's a "newly built" building you can activate it, so you can get 4, possibly 5 activations (if you rebuild 2 buildings) if you play a LOT of wrenches. For 5 activations you'd need 3(activate the original 3)+4(rebuild 2 of them)+2(activate the new 2), so 9 total :-D . Also, you'd have to control 5 regions able to build buildings on. Very edge case, but I need an answer because it has come up.

For 3., it actually DOESN'T matter whether you controlled the region before it was a battle region, because I quote from the manual: "If for any reason during the Action phase, all Units from one player in a Region with a Battle token are eliminated prior to Battle Resolution, a Battle does not take place. Immediately remove the Battle token and place a Control token for the player with Units remaining."

So actually it doesn't matter who controlled the region. It says IMMEDIATELY, and it also says DURING the action phase. So scenario: I move 4 machines on action 1 into human region with 1 mini. Battle is declared, token appears. Humans still control. Action 2 I shred the human. It says even DURING the action I IMMEDIATELY remove the battle token AND place a control token for the player with units remaining (machines in this case, so humans immediately, during the build action, lose control and machines gain control before the build action is over (?) ). I mean, it really really sounds like I shred and then I can use any other wrenches to now build into the newly controlled region, but I want some confirmation, because it's a strange case which unfortunately does come up somewhat frequently...


Hi HeatSurge,

I'm sorry you didn't feel our responses were helpful. I'm not sure we can be of much more help beyond pointing you to the "word" FAQ that the designer put out to make sure we got answers since the official one wasn't getting updated frequently enough and the fact that Grant has always suggested that you play the way you find the game to be most fun. Grant is pretty active in these forums so maybe he'll chime in and you can have that extra confirmation you need.

I will point out that I don't think the rules you've quoted disqualify the validity of my response- they don't conflict with or present an exception to the basic building rules described on page 9 of the rule book (my emphasis added):

"Discard any number of cards from your hand and gain Building points equal to the number of Building icons on the discarded cards. Then, spend each Building point to place Structures in Regions you controlled at the beginning of this Action and/or Activate Structures that are already Built, including ones Built this turn!"

While control is certainly changed immediately when a region no longer becomes a battle region as you've said, you won't have controlled the region at the beginning of your action (rather you control it "immediately" and "during" your action as you've described) and thus are not allowed to build a new structure there.

I'm certainly not the final authority on this but for me this part of the rules seems quite clear.
 
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Grant Rodiek
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HeatSurge wrote:
I've played about 15+ games of Cry Havoc now. Rather great time, and I feel like I'm just scratching the surface. Of course, things have got to come up in a rules-heavy games like this, and of course things came up today (they really came up previously but I had forgotten about them).

1. Can you stack multiple watchtower and artillery tokens? For example, if you build and activate both on themselves for 6 wrenches on action 1, then activate both with 2 wrenches on action 2 and then activate both with 2 wrenches on action 3, do you end up with 3 watchtower tokens potentially in the same region where the watchtower is, and 3 artillery tokens potentially in the same region where the artillery is (6 tokens total where the 2 buildings are if they're in the same region)?

2. Can you "demolish" a building and "rebuild" it somewhere else in the (extremely unlikely but possible) event that you want to rebuild one of your three buildings somewhere else? If you can "demolish/rebuild," do you also get to activate the new building that you just built since it's "new" (in the even more extremely unlikely but possible scenario you really have that many wrenches)? So if you had built your 3 extractors as pilgrims, you can play 6 wrenches to activate all 3 of them, "demolish and rebuild" one of them (assuming you have a 4th region you control without a battle, i.e. ready to be built on) and activate the 4th/rebuilt building with a wrench to effectively get 4 extractor activations in one action?

3. When machines shred the last attacker or defender in a declared battle, I get that the token gets removed immediately, machines get control immediately, and a battle does not happen. HOWEVER, how "immediate" is immediate? Does it happen before the build action is completed? So if you played 7 wrenches, you can shred the last guy, then before your build action is over, build and activate e.g. a factory and shred drones in the region where there was supposed to be a battle prior to your action (where the last opponent got shredded and the battle token disappeared)?

I'm sure it's not the end for all future questions, but this should satisfy me for now :-P .


Was going to let other folks answer, but there seems to be concerns, so I emerge.

1. You CANNOT have multiple Artillery or Watchtower STRUCTURES in a single region...same as any Structure. You CAN have multiple Artillery or Watchtower TOKENS in a single Region. You can have 1-3 of each. Obviously, you cannot activate these structures more than once each per Action, but if you have multiple Artillery (for example), or activate the same one 3 times? Yes, you can place 3.

If you fire a fourth? You have to move one of your currently placed ones to the new target Region.

2. You cannot demolish or rebuild. The Machines can move and they can transform, but without those skills, no, you cannot demolish or rebuild.

If you really want? Treat it the same as the tokens. Replace one of your current ones to put in a new place. But, honestly, I struggle to think of a likely situation, against competent opponents, where this is really a valid use of time.

But, NO, you cannot do this, so all the theorycrafting is not useful. But, your game, I'm not there, do what you wish! Just don't yell at me if it doesn't work

3. Immediate is immediate, but the rules state you can only Build in Regions you control at the start of your turn. You cannot shred the last, build a new one, and then activate that. Furthermore, if you cannot activate the structure at the start of your turn (b/c it's in a battle region, for example?) Same rule applies. You cannot activate it.
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Thanks a bunch, Grant and Van. I'm perfectly satisfied with all answers :-) .

I forgot about only being able to build if you have control at the BEGINNING of your turn for 3. I was looking for a rule quote and I got it. That makes perfect sense now.

As far as having competent opponents, I know it's unlikely you want to build a lot, but the situation has come up to where I've wondered. Most frequently with Pilgrims and Harvesters (left alone while humans and machines fight and trying to abuse the Pilgrim Pool as much as possible for scoring).
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