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Subject: On the occasion of RS kickstarter, I want to say, I'm glad I'm thick-skinned rss

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Tomasz Podsiadło
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[The following post was written with no intention to offend anyone, or to dsregard anyone's feelings]
I'm grateful for the way my character is shaped.
I don't get enraged by not enough, or too many female clans or whatever. Because all I want from minis is to look cool, not to fulfill gender parity normes.
I'm too old to get worried about some inadequacy with actual Japanese mythology. I'll probably never have occassion to see Onis in reality, to compare them to their minis in Rising Sun. So for me it's pointless.
And Panda warrior is God damm awesome for me.
I'm not sensitive enough to rage over the title of the game, nor its symbolics. Because first of all, obviously, I'm European, and I don't share sentiment to these (don't eat me alive please). And secondly, even if you used Häcken Kreitz/ Sickle and Hammer in any game I'd not be offended at all, if the game was good, and if it wasn't just nazi/commie propaganda. Does it mean that my ancestors sufered nothing from those ideologies, and I'm fine with them? (really huge and emphasised) NO and No. But I'm too old to care any more. More effort and problem than it's worth in my opinnion.
And Et Cetera, et Cetera...
This way I focus on the game, and have pleasure from new content added.
My conclusion is, you guys should really find some distance from which you view, judge, and have feelings about things. Living such way will be a hella more enjoyable and easier. I promise.

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Robert S
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That's what being normal means
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Pete R.
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I think if you were thick skinned you wouldn't even post about the issues others feel so thin skinned about. But, that's just my opinion. This is nothing like the size of Dark Souls negative town. I backed and can't wait to get the game.
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Paul Wright
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I think the topics are completely valid to bring up, especially considering Eric Lang himself has publicly voiced his concerns for the lack of representation of women and BAME groups in board games. If he thinks these issues are important, then surely this should be visibly noticeable in his games? Unfortunately, we're living in an age when many people can't see there is a problem, so we're relying on the spokespeople within the industry to drive the change.

It isn't necessarily offensive or outrageous that those values aren't reflected in RS, but it is disappointing that such a clear opportunity was missed and many common tropes perpetuated. Likewise, if it isn't an issue, then why wasn't mythology from neighbouring countries inserted into Blood Rage?


It's not about a Panda, the designer is perfectly entitled to putting in one or two exceptions because they think it's cool. To me, it seems that each stage of the design process had one or two exceptions inserted that added up to quite a substantial difference in the final product. The designer wants one thing because it's cool, then the artist thinks something would look cooler if it was a certain way that isn't strictly Japanese, and maybe he modelled the figures on pictures of Japanese warriors so didn't think of designing women warriors until the end? etc. All those small conscious/unconsciois design choices made in isolation add up. I trust the team that it wasn't in any way on purpose.

Finally, here are some tweets from Eric:
"New favourite BGG post ever, an 8-year old girl's request: "More girl teams, and perhaps a horse or cat."
All the ❤"

"My demographic is well represented, and while talent is gender and race agnostic, perspective is not. I'm interested in broader perspective."

"Those offended by the occasional highlighting of minorities in gaming: With respect, I don't care. Probably best for us both if you unfollow"

So this is something he is clearly passionate about encouraging.

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Peter Bowie
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Kickstarter is a system wherein people think if they state their wants enough times, content creators will include them in the game. Which leads to this platform full of people never satisfied with what's being offered.

Which is sad. I'm always eager to share my desires for a game, and it's fun hearing other people's wants too. But people forget basic manners and end up starting arguments about stupid stuff.

The female clan situation is especially abhorrent, primarily because it's never "another female clan would be neat" (which I agree with, I'd love some more female representation), it's "OMG why isn't the Fox clan female?!?!" (which I don't agree with, CMoN can design their games however they like).

With its tie to social issues too, the arguments that follow seem particularly genre-blind, as if every game should have lots of female diversity regardless of what demographic the game is targeted towards. (In Rising Sun's case, being a conflict-driven game, which is generally a male-oriented thing, it's no surprise it mostly has male characters. Set in Feudal Japan no less—whilst it a fantasy game, it does maintain some thematic integrity by having more male warriors than women.)
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Jason Daniels
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I've lived long enough to know that people get offended and bent-out-of-shape over stuff that I don't even notice. I really don't find it to be a bad thing, per se, until they start telling others that we should be offended on their behalf. Some things are right, some things are wrong, and some things don't matter in the grand scheme of things.

If you want to be offended by scantily clad women, big muscled men, real religions, fake religions, the British Empire, the Japanese Empire or some flag that only means what the person flying it says it does, go ahead. I ain't riding your train.
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Cyan Shad
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I'm finding more and more that Kickstarter backers, the loud ones at least are really entitled brats. There stretch goals your already getting way over $100 dollars worth of stuff. There not milking you by drawing out the fox clan, your getting it for free. There is a whole clan of females plus there are some goddesses. Why does there have to be more? I'd understand if there wasn't any it might turn you away, but it's a board game, not some role playing experience. If no one wanted to play the Koi clan (females) I'd play them. There's a lot of KS exclusives, more then there was for Blood Rage and the eBay prices for that are four to five times the amount people paid for it. It's fine to put your ideas forth to the game creator, but a lot of the comments sound angry, demanding, and bitter.
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Carl Snoeckx
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Thank you Tomasz, this is one of the best comments i have ever read
here and i can only second Robert Starks reply :

'That's what being normal means'
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Terence M
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omnibus4404 wrote:
[The following post was written with no intention to offend anyone, or to dsregard anyone's feelings]
I'm grateful for the way my character is shaped.
I don't get enraged by not enough, or too many female clans or whatever. Because all I want from minis is to look cool, not to fulfill gender parity normes.
I'm too old to get worried about some inadequacy with actual Japanese mythology. I'll probably never have occassion to see Onis in reality, to compare them to their minis in Rising Sun. So for me it's pointless.
And Panda warrior is God damm awesome for me.
I'm not sensitive enough to rage over the title of the game, nor its symbolics. Because first of all, obviously, I'm European, and I don't share sentiment to these (don't eat me alive please). And secondly, even if you used Häcken Kreitz/ Sickle and Hammer in any game I'd not be offended at all, if the game was good, and if it wasn't just nazi/commie propaganda. Does it mean that my ancestors sufered nothing from those ideologies, and I'm fine with them? (really huge and emphasised) NO and No. But I'm too old to care any more. More effort and problem than it's worth in my opinnion.
And Et Cetera, et Cetera...
This way I focus on the game, and have pleasure from new content added.
My conclusion is, you guys should really find some distance from which you view, judge, and have feelings about things. Living such way will be a hella more enjoyable and easier. I promise.



Its good that you can be objective. But I would argue that part of compassion is being able to sympathize with others' perspectives. Perhaps you haven't personally experienced hurt or shame because of your nationality, race, or gender. Personally, I am not upset about female ratios, historical accuracy, and depictions of imperial japan (I am not a female, korean, or japanese. But, I think its important to at least take a minute to put yourself in others' shoes and understand where they may be coming from. I agree that it can feel frustrating when others complain about things that may seem trivial, but there are usually deeper hurts and reasons for them that may not be conveyed well unless you've been through it yourself. Fortunately, some of us have had the privilege of never experiencing those past atrocities... anyways I'm as excited for this game as the next person.
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Aaron L.
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cyan1de wrote:
I'm finding more and more that Kickstarter backers, the loud ones at least are really entitled brats. There stretch goals your already getting way over $100 dollars worth of stuff. There not milking you by drawing out the fox clan, your getting it for free. There is a whole clan of females plus there are some goddesses. Why does there have to be more? I'd understand if there wasn't any it might turn you away, but it's a board game, not some role playing experience. If no one wanted to play the Koi clan (females) I'd play them. There's a lot of KS exclusives, more then there was for Blood Rage and the eBay prices for that are four to five times the amount people paid for it. It's fine to put your ideas forth to the game creator, but a lot of the comments sound angry, demanding, and bitter.


Perhaps they are practicing how to be offended about anything...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-mju_gW3c8
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DrProfHazzmatt
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Riding the Kickstarter hype train since 2015.
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While you may not be particularly offended, upset, or mad about any of these things, do you at least acknowledge that there are valid criticisms from people here?
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J Kaemmer
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cyan1de wrote:
I'm finding more and more that Kickstarter backers, the loud ones at least are really entitled brats. There stretch goals your already getting way over $100 dollars worth of stuff. There not milking you by drawing out the fox clan, your getting it for free. There is a whole clan of females plus there are some goddesses. Why does there have to be more? I'd understand if there wasn't any it might turn you away, but it's a board game, not some role playing experience. If no one wanted to play the Koi clan (females) I'd play them. There's a lot of KS exclusives, more then there was for Blood Rage and the eBay prices for that are four to five times the amount people paid for it. It's fine to put your ideas forth to the game creator, but a lot of the comments sound angry, demanding, and bitter.


I don't know about entitled brats... But I swear every update is chumming the waters for hungry piranhas. They're ready to pounce immediately, tearing it to shreds, it's a damn frenzy. There is always something wrong for these hungry piranha-people. There's always a hunger for more stuff, their fish-brains have already forgotten the other stuff they have consumed (are receiving).

I'm not mad about it, just bewildered. Its a mentality I can't empathize with. Given one thing for free, it just serves to increase their hunger. Some have good intentions, but others... It's just an animalistic frenzy. As such I try to stay far away from the comments on KS.
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Will Baker
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omnibus4404 wrote:
[The following post was written with no intention to offend anyone, or to dsregard anyone's feelings]
I'm grateful for the way my character is shaped.
I don't get enraged by not enough, or too many female clans or whatever. Because all I want from minis is to look cool, not to fulfill gender parity normes.
I'm too old to get worried about some inadequacy with actual Japanese mythology. I'll probably never have occassion to see Onis in reality, to compare them to their minis in Rising Sun. So for me it's pointless.
And Panda warrior is God damm awesome for me.
I'm not sensitive enough to rage over the title of the game, nor its symbolics. Because first of all, obviously, I'm European, and I don't share sentiment to these (don't eat me alive please). And secondly, even if you used Häcken Kreitz/ Sickle and Hammer in any game I'd not be offended at all, if the game was good, and if it wasn't just nazi/commie propaganda. Does it mean that my ancestors sufered nothing from those ideologies, and I'm fine with them? (really huge and emphasised) NO and No. But I'm too old to care any more. More effort and problem than it's worth in my opinnion.
And Et Cetera, et Cetera...
This way I focus on the game, and have pleasure from new content added.
My conclusion is, you guys should really find some distance from which you view, judge, and have feelings about things. Living such way will be a hella more enjoyable and easier. I promise.



Thank you! Thank You! Thank YOU!

If you look at the many thumbs up and the geek gold given to the OP it seems the folks that just read and not post (you know the silent majority) it kind of reflects on how many are just so sick of people telling other people what they should be offended over.
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Will Baker
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ajlaw wrote:
cyan1de wrote:
I'm finding more and more that Kickstarter backers, the loud ones at least are really entitled brats. There stretch goals your already getting way over $100 dollars worth of stuff. There not milking you by drawing out the fox clan, your getting it for free. There is a whole clan of females plus there are some goddesses. Why does there have to be more? I'd understand if there wasn't any it might turn you away, but it's a board game, not some role playing experience. If no one wanted to play the Koi clan (females) I'd play them. There's a lot of KS exclusives, more then there was for Blood Rage and the eBay prices for that are four to five times the amount people paid for it. It's fine to put your ideas forth to the game creator, but a lot of the comments sound angry, demanding, and bitter.


Perhaps they are practicing how to be offended about anything...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-mju_gW3c8


Love that video lol. Why it's so funny is it's true in today's world.
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Ed Vreeland
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The problem is the assumption of gender preferences is what maintains the exclusivity. "It doesn't affect me so I don't care" is a fair attitude to have, but the people who are speaking out are people who probably have a variety of people in their gaming group. My complaint with the game is that as it stands I probably won't ever play it more than a couple times in my small (but diverse) gaming group, for that reason until they announce a second female clan (which at that point it would be 2 out of 7 which is only 28% representation in the clans) I won't bother backing this game I've been hyped about since gen con.

Quote:
With its tie to social issues too, the arguments that follow seem particularly genre-blind, as if every game should have lots of female diversity regardless of what demographic the game is targeted towards. (In Rising Sun's case, being a conflict-driven game, which is generally a male-oriented thing, it's no surprise it mostly has male characters. Set in Feudal Japan no less—whilst it a fantasy game, it does maintain some thematic integrity by having more male warriors than women.)


While I understand this sentiment, a big part of the reason that it's considered male oriented is because women are woefully underrepresented. 'Women don't like conflict oriented games,' so designers don't put women in Conflict oriented games, so women won't play conflict oriented games because everything in the game's design subtlety says, this is not a game for women. It's a vicious cycle and it's not a battle that will be won by putting one token army in a game although even that is a big step for this industry.

In a similar vein I have a hard time getting samurai spirit to the table in my group in part because Antoine Bauza decided that the 7 samurai and 66 bandits should all be men. More frustrating is that the families in the game are represent by geisha dolls, simultaneously marginalizing and objectifying the only "women" in the game.
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Eduardo Guimarães
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In what distorced world people live that female players can only play with female characters in a game and male players can only play with male characters? It's a game goddammit, it's not a social statement.
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Tomasz Podsiadło
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eduguima wrote:
In what distorced world people live that female players can only play with female characters in a game and male players can only play with male characters? It's a game goddammit, it's not a social statement.

I wanted to reply something, but that's really all I needed.
If female players can't play without female minis for each one of them... I'm prone to risk a statement that They probably don't feel like playing the game at all...
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Steve R Bullock
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You don't need to be thick skinned or otherwise.

A game will appeal to players on a certain aesthetic or play level, and beyond that it really doesn't matter about the playing pieces.

If something about the game bothers or upsets you, simply don't throw any money at it.
No need to complain about what it is that you don't like about it... just don't buy it and fade quietly away.
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J Kaemmer
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eduguima wrote:
In what distorced world people live that female players can only play with female characters in a game and male players can only play with male characters? It's a game goddammit, it's not a social statement.


My wife actually gravitates towards playing games with big manly men for her to play. Her favorite Eldritch/Arkham character is Silas Marsh. I don't think women NEED female characters to feel included, just like like men shouldn't be put off by playing female ones. Tokenism for female inclusions is actually belittling of women, if you ask my wife.

Now, that isn't to say that 5:1 (4.5:1.5) is a great ratio. It does feel like they could do more, but I certainly won't demand it. Fortunatley there's probably 2 more clans to announce...
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Thaddeus MacTaggart
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eduguima wrote:
In what distorced world people live that female players can only play with female characters in a game?
And male players can only play with male characters? It's a game goddammit, it's not a social statement.


In games:
Some Men really prefer to play men
Some Men really prefer to play women
Some Women really prefer to play men
Some Women really prefer to play women
Some Men and Women don't care.

Why in heaven's name would you not offer a choice when it's very easy to do?
Why force players into one direction? And make you game appeal to less people than you can?

edit: what I had done as CMON was designing everything as it is, except not making alternative Bushi but making alternative Daimyo: one of each gender for each clan.
Same amount of moulds, same costs, but everbody happy.
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Ed Vreeland
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eduguima wrote:
In what distorced world people live that female players can only play with female characters in a game and male players can only play with male characters? It's a game goddammit, it's not a social statement.


The problem is that you are assuming choice where there is none. It's not that men have to play men, but rather in most games women have to play men. Before you even start playing the game is subtlety telling you, "you're going to be fighting and women are weak so you'll be playing a strong man." And that makes some women understandably uncomfortable.
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Y P
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Tomasz,

I'm glad you're secure in your strength of character. But you should be secure enough to allow others to have their say too.

I sympathize completely with those who are fed up with all the complaints. Truly there are a lot of them in this project even more so than past CMoN projects. I feel bad for CMoN who finally managed a minis games with no cheesecake female minis but they get roasted over a host of other issues instead.

At the same time if you take each individual issue separately it's easy to see why the complaints have arisen if you take the time to try to identify with others. It's a simple matter of human decency. "I don't feel it so who cares what others think" is a very selfish and lazy approach. Some people feel the freedom to express such a position, and more power to them for being honest. But really it's a bad look and I'm amazed that people can express it with such confidence.
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Jeff M
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Thousands of people have pledged on the RS KS campaign.
A handful have felt it necessary to voice complaints about game design, content, theme, artwork, etc. etc. etc here.
Life goes on.

As Lincoln said, You can please some of the people some of the time, all of the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time, but you can never please all of the people all of the time.
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Dave
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Amazing OP. First line: "Post is not intended to disregard anyone's feelings." Goes on to dismiss the issues brought up so far, concluding "you guys should really find some distance from which you view, judge, and have feelings about things."

Basically the exact same arguments found in all other threads, some variant of "if it doesn't affect me how could it possibly affect you? Why doesn't everyone think the way *I* think?". Way to empathize, Tom.

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Robert S
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I find it funny that usually it's men who talk about woman discrimination in gaming and not woman, and then they say stuff like "you can't relate because it doesn't affect you!" but it does affect you, right? They do have voice and can raise their concerns by themselves.

For more than ten years I played games with a lot of different woman of different nationalities or ages and I never heard even single one of them complaining about this stuff or at least saying "aren't there female characters, shame".

There is no need for men to voice their concerns in woman's place, nowadays they can do it for themselves and somehow most of them are not doing it. Maybe it's not such a big of a issue?
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