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Subject: Really Wish CMON Had Copied KD:M's KS Reveals rss

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Richard Sampson
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I feel like CMON has really killed a lot of the fun of this KS with the current Fox Clan stretch goals. I mean first off, we already know that most, if not all, stretch goals are a bit fake and will be included. Second, there is no real reason to have "stretch" goals in the early parts of the campaign as they are by definition something to bring in more backers at the end. So really they are just to kind of create hype and keep people interested in the campaign.

However, by breaking up the Fox Clan into so many stretch goals, spreading them out further than previous goals, and putting them right at the beginning of the lull, there is just no excitement, at least for me. I already know what the next goals will be and we are just stuck waiting for a week or so until the whole package is done, and we can move on to something new.

Instead, I think they really should have copied what Poots did with KD:M. The Gambler Chest reveals essentially worked like stretch goals but were not tied to funding amounts. Instead we got a reveal each day. This meant that each day there was something to look forward to, and there was no fake money goals tied to the reveals. It was genuinely exciting and had me excited to see the next update. At the end, Poots did start using stretch goals, and it made sense there. With the final build up of funding, it was lots of additional excitement.
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Will Baker
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ras2124 wrote:
I feel like CMON has really killed a lot of the fun of this KS with the current Fox Clan stretch goals. I mean first off, we already know that most, if not all, stretch goals are a bit fake and will be included. Second, there is no real reason to have "stretch" goals in the early parts of the campaign as they are by definition something to bring in more backers at the end. So really they are just to kind of create hype and keep people interested in the campaign.

However, by breaking up the Fox Clan into so many stretch goals, spreading them out further than previous goals, and putting them right at the beginning of the lull, there is just no excitement, at least for me. I already know what the next goals will be and we are just stuck waiting for a week or so until the whole package is done, and we can move on to something new.

Instead, I think they really should have copied what Poots did with KD:M. The Gambler Chest reveals essentially worked like stretch goals but were not tied to funding amounts. Instead we got a reveal each day. This meant that each day there was something to look forward to, and there was no fake money goals tied to the reveals. It was genuinely exciting and had me excited to see the next update. At the end, Poots did start using stretch goals, and it made sense there. With the final build up of funding, it was lots of additional excitement.


I totally agree. Breaking up the stretch goals like they did sucks. That said, still a good value.
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ah kaiser
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I am happy with CMON and Rising Sun Campaign. Most of these KS are set with what is coming any way.
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Gotta agree. Seems really odd to break the sixth clan (one we already knew was coming) into so many different stretch goals with longer gaps in between at a time when the funding has clearly reached its peak and began to slow down. We will have to wait quite some time before we are done with this one addition. What a way to kill the excitement.

Having said that, a new clan is exactly what I was looking for since it brings more variety/longevity to the game. I want things that affect the gameplay, not plastic tokens. The shipping rates are high to my country so perhaps I approach KS campaigns from a different perspective than some others. I expect stretch goals that justify the heavier price tag compared to the retail version.
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Patrick Reynolds
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I'd tend to agree with you except that they front-loaded a ton of stretch goals into this campaign already - something like 10 monsters, upgraded components, sculpted strongholds, sculpted battle markers, etc. I'd be completely satisfied with everything we're getting out of this game even if the extra content stopped after the sixth clan.

I do agree that it sucks some of the excitement out of the campaign to have such long lulls so early like this. One of the things I enjoy about CMoN's KS campaigns is logging in and seeing one or more new updates on a nearly daily basis.

I think add-ons are coming soon and that should put some wind back in the sails.
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Richard Sampson
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Yeah, I am not saying the content isn't good. I think it is good, and I am excited to see what comes after the Fox Clan. However, I think I would be WAY more hyped if there were say 30 silhouettes and one got revealed each day. Then people would see there is a lot of content while still maintaining the surprise. It would also build lots of speculation and discussion on what was coming. As it is now, we get to wait a week to find out the next big stretch goal reveal is the rest of the the Fox Clan is another $100k away.
 
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Jeff M
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I pledged KD:M's recent campaign.
I HATED how they rolled out stretch goals/add ons. I found it to be very confusing. What interacted with what? If I add on this item, what others did I need to add on to get the entire scenario? Just what were the different things they were adding on? How did they affect the base game?
Rising Sun is doing fine by me.
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Richard Sampson
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Lowden025 wrote:
I HATED how they rolled out stretch goals/add ons.
I was talking about the Gambler Chest stuff, not the stretch goas/add ons. The Gambler Chest showed a bunch of mystery spots at the very beginning and the contents were slowly revealed over the campaign. There were also lots of cool changes and bonus spots along the way, and while it was all planned out, it was still fun to see.
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Lowden025 wrote:
I found it to be very confusing.


I'm sure we'd have CMON backer complaints that a random roll not tied to pledge amounts would be arbitrary and blah blah blah. CMON could have unlocked the expansion set earlier, but then we'd have complaints that their mid-campaign SG's weren't providing additional gameplay. OTOH, An early expansion unlock could make it easier for backers to publicize the game. A "base game and expansion plus SG's" sounds like more stuff than "base game plus SG's".

A silhouette partial reveal two SG's ahead (still keeping a full reveal of the next SG) might be a good way to keep backers involved in the campaign, as they guess what SG will be unlocked in a few days.
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Tony
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I agree it is a little boring right now (and that it didn't have to be). I don't mind their breaking the Fox Clan up over several stretch goals; I just think this was a bad time to do it if the goal was to keep things exciting and motivating at the end of week one.

I'm also surprised they are running this campaign for so long, especially with in tandem with how they did the launch (they did everything the could to get folks early). With late pledges, etc. I think it would have done just as well had it been spread out over 2 or 3 weeks (rather than 4 weeks).

Hopefully we'll get an add on on Monday or Tuesday. Given the Fox Clan is a KS exclusive, it seems like at least one more clan is on the way so they will have an extra clan to offer to folks who buy it later. The more clans the better as far as I am concerned as having more clans to chose from will really add a lot to of replayability to the game.
 
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You realize that if CMON was following Adam's method they be revealing the $610K stretch goal today? The fox clan be one item, but it wouldn't get revealed for another week or two.
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Richard Sampson
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cormor321 wrote:
You realize that if CMON was following Adam's method they be revealing the $610K stretch goal today? The fox clan be one item, but it wouldn't get revealed for another week or two.
Yes I do. With the fast reveals on day 1, there wasn't even time to be excited about the 610k stretch goal, and for many people it was already unlocked by the time they saw the project. There is no hype or excitement for a particular reveal that way. It is just a face full of extras and then a long stretch of nothing. People didn't even have time to read and digest the updates before the next one, and it was a complete waste. With KD:M people were reading all the updates and getting really excited about each addition to the project with threads and discussions about each update here on the geek.
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Max Maloney
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ras2124 wrote:
I feel like CMON has really killed a lot of the fun of this KS with the current Fox Clan stretch goals. I mean first off, we already know that most, if not all, stretch goals are a bit fake and will be included. Second, there is no real reason to have "stretch" goals in the early parts of the campaign as they are by definition something to bring in more backers at the end. So really they are just to kind of create hype and keep people interested in the campaign.

However, by breaking up the Fox Clan into so many stretch goals, spreading them out further than previous goals, and putting them right at the beginning of the lull, there is just no excitement, at least for me. I already know what the next goals will be and we are just stuck waiting for a week or so until the whole package is done, and we can move on to something new.

Two things you should consider:

First, if they revealed the Fox Clan as a single stretch goal, it would be a much larger funding gap. It's tons more stuff than a single miniature it really does compare to several stretch goals worth of content. Breaking it up is a little weird, but it lets us wrap our heads around how many steps we have left to get it.

Second, CMON campaigns always feel dull in the Fri-Sun timeframe because backing tends to be slow over weekends. Kickstarter projects fund a lot more during weekdays. CMON knows this. Expect the first add-on reveal to happen on Monday, pushing us through the Fox Clan and probably the next stretch goal after it almost instantly. Don't look for much to happen on the weekend.
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Richard Sampson
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Dormammu wrote:
Two things you should consider:

First, if they revealed the Fox Clan as a single stretch goal, it would be a much larger funding gap. It's tons more stuff than a single miniature it really does compare to several stretch goals worth of content. Breaking it up is a little weird, but it lets us wrap our heads around how many steps we have left to get it.

Second, CMON campaigns always feel dull in the Fri-Sun timeframe because backing tends to be slow over weekends. Kickstarter projects fund a lot more during weekdays. CMON knows this. Expect the first add-on reveal to happen on Monday, pushing us through the Fox Clan and probably the next stretch goal after it almost instantly. Don't look for much to happen on the weekend.
First off, the funding requirements of the stretch goals are mostly arbitrary and have been steadily increasing since the campaign started. Therefore if you say the Fox Clan is 5 stretch goals worth of content, it doesn't mean there has to be a gap since the actual amounts have nothing to do with the content.

Consider, the current 4 Fox Clan goals have required $90k, $90k, $100k, and $100k increases. That is $380k to unlock most of the clan (and probably another $100k+ to get the Shinto). The first 5 stretch goals of the campaign were unlocked with a $150k funding increase. In fact those early $30k goals were the exact equivalent of our current $100k Fox Clan goals so why is this set of Bushi worth over 3x as much?

Second, even if it were the case that the content makes sense to split over a large gap, that is really just a problem with the stretch goal reveal system they are using. My entire point was that tying reveals to arbitrary amounts means that lulls in the campaign kill excitement over reveals. Slowing down the reveals and doing them at a constant pace keeps excitement and anticipation high.

Lastly, you say no to worry, there will be add-ons next week, but that really illustrates the problem with this mindset. Why should we be looking forward to new ways to pay them in order to get the reveals? I would much rather be excited about knowing a new reveal of included content is coming rather than HOPING they come up with new ways to throw money at them so that we can get the show on the road.
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ras2124 wrote:
First off, the funding requirements of the stretch goals are mostly arbitrary and have been steadily increasing since the campaign started. Therefore if you say the Fox Clan is 5 stretch goals worth of content, it doesn't mean there has to be a gap since the actual amounts have nothing to do with the content.


I rather doubt there is much about the the funding requirements for each goal that is arbitrary. The pre-planned goals are being spaced out based on the pace of funding to fill the duration of the campaign while also manipulating the speed of funding and setting backer expectations of what they'll see during the campaign.
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Richard Sampson
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cormor321 wrote:
ras2124 wrote:
First off, the funding requirements of the stretch goals are mostly arbitrary and have been steadily increasing since the campaign started. Therefore if you say the Fox Clan is 5 stretch goals worth of content, it doesn't mean there has to be a gap since the actual amounts have nothing to do with the content.


I rather doubt there is much about the the funding requirements for each goal that is arbitrary. The pre-planned goals are being spaced out based on the pace of funding to fill the duration of the campaign while also manipulating the speed of funding and setting backer expectations of what they'll see during the campaign.
When I say arbitrary, what I actually mean is the values are just whatever CMON feels is right at the moment and not some actual gating amount that CMON crunched the numbers on before the campaign. In other words, everything is already included and CMON is just picking numbers to space them out as you suggest. I feel like if the numbers are just to space them, why not just have them be time gated from the start instead of creating the facade of monetary restrictions. IMO none of this has any real effect on the funding at this point in the campaign other than that people would not back if the extra stuff wasn't included; however, as long as people know stuff is coming, regardless of how it is gated, I don't think that is an issue.
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Zoltán Dudás
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I dont really get your point. You already acknowledged that the stretch goals are spaced out based on how the campaign is currently going and not actual needed funding. The 6th clan is in 5 stretchgoals for a around a total half mil because they want it to take around a week to unlock, because they simply dont want / have enough extra stuff to show every 1-2 days for 28 days.

So no matter how the funding goes, majority of the stuff is predetermined and you will get it in 22 days.

If you are aware of that, then how would a different reveal mechanic keep you more engaged or make you invest more funds?
Knowing the above + there is a single pledge + no add-ons, I doubt you will suddenly throw and extra 50-100-150 USD at them out of pure hype just because you like how they reveal SGs.

Also check various campaigns on https://www.kicktraq.com
There is always a huge lul and slowing down after the first couple days until the last couple days.
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So you would prefer a Fox Clan as an add-on for $35 ?? And instead you want some small miniature-SGs that offer no real gameplay improvement, or simple replace tokens with small minis?
I like that idea, as it is very good for my bank account
 
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@Zoltán

Doing the reveals a different way makes no difference to how much I spend. Monetary goals would never make me spend more money than I would otherwise, and I think realistically stretch goals are not really intended to do that (though I know some kind of take them that way). Instead I think the real intention of stretch goals is to take hype of backers and get them to spread the word and get more backers.

In fact, I can give you pretty concrete example of how CMON may have lost funding from this. I had a friend over yesterday who I rarely see and who LOVES Blood Rage. He isn't part of the gaming community so RS is completely off his radar, but there is a strong chance he would back if he knew about it. Anyway, I had fully intended to tell him, but this campaign has largely been off my mind due to the current boring stretch so I forgot. If they had had the hype train going, and I was thinking about the next update, I might have remembered.
 
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ras2124 wrote:
@Zoltán

Doing the reveals a different way makes no difference to how much I spend. Monetary goals would never make me spend more money than I would otherwise, and I think realistically stretch goals are not really intended to do that (though I know some kind of take them that way). Instead I think the real intention of stretch goals is to take hype of backers and get them to spread the word and get more backers.

In fact, I can give you pretty concrete example of how CMON may have lost funding from this. I had a friend over yesterday who I rarely see and who LOVES Blood Rage. He isn't part of the gaming community so RS is completely off his radar, but there is a strong chance he would back if he knew about it. Anyway, I had fully intended to tell him, but this campaign has largely been off my mind due to the current boring stretch so I forgot. If they had had the hype train going, and I was thinking about the next update, I might have remembered.


Send him a message?
 
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Richard Sampson
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tilouboy wrote:
Send him a message?
I don't think I have his email. He is more of a friend of a friend. Sure I could reach out to him, but it is an effort on my part, and it would be a bit awkward outside of face-to-face. My point is that if you concede that a major point of the stretch goals is to get backers to pull more backers in, then lulls in the campaign create lulls in hype which create missed opportunities.
 
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ras2124 wrote:
Consider, the current 4 Fox Clan goals have required $90k, $90k, $100k, and $100k increases. That is $380k to unlock most of the clan (and probably another $100k+ to get the Shinto). The first 5 stretch goals of the campaign were unlocked with a $150k funding increase. In fact those early $30k goals were the exact equivalent of our current $100k Fox Clan goals so why is this set of Bushi worth over 3x as much?

What you are describing here is a different topic entirely: the fact that later stretch goals require greater funding increases than earlier ones.

This is an economy of scale issue. As the campaign progresses, there are more and more backers. Each add on eats into their profit margin. There are more backers, but they are still getting less profit per backer. This is the way every KS has worked that I've ever backed, whether by CMON or any other company.

And above and beyond all these issues, CMON has built an incredibly successful company running their Kickstarters this way time after time. There are always people who second guess or complain about the design of their campaigns, but in the end they are rousing successes. Apparently CMON is doing something right since they've surpassed most non-Asmodee companies in success.
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Dormammu wrote:
ras2124 wrote:
Consider, the current 4 Fox Clan goals have required $90k, $90k, $100k, and $100k increases. That is $380k to unlock most of the clan (and probably another $100k+ to get the Shinto). The first 5 stretch goals of the campaign were unlocked with a $150k funding increase. In fact those early $30k goals were the exact equivalent of our current $100k Fox Clan goals so why is this set of Bushi worth over 3x as much?

What you are describing here is a different topic entirely: the fact that later stretch goals require greater funding increases than earlier ones.

This is an economy of scale issue. As the campaign progresses, there are more and more backers. Each add on eats into their profit margin. There are more backers, but they are still getting less profit per backer. This is the way every KS has worked that I've ever backed, whether by CMON or any other company.

And above and beyond all these issues, CMON has built an incredibly successful company running their Kickstarters this way time after time. There are always people who second guess or complain about the design of their campaigns, but in the end they are rousing successes. Apparently CMON is doing something right since they've surpassed most non-Asmodee companies in success.


Reaper explained that really well once. Every new stretch goal has to also include enough money to cover additional copies of every previous stretch goal for each backer that's joined since the previous goal. If you hit stretch goal #1 at 100 backers it costs a certain amount. When you hit stretch goal #2 at 200 backers the amount has to be enough to cover stretch goal #2 for 200 people + 100 more copies of stretch goal #1.
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Dormammu wrote:
ras2124 wrote:
Consider, the current 4 Fox Clan goals have required $90k, $90k, $100k, and $100k increases. That is $380k to unlock most of the clan (and probably another $100k+ to get the Shinto). The first 5 stretch goals of the campaign were unlocked with a $150k funding increase. In fact those early $30k goals were the exact equivalent of our current $100k Fox Clan goals so why is this set of Bushi worth over 3x as much?

What you are describing here is a different topic entirely: the fact that later stretch goals require greater funding increases than earlier ones.

This is an economy of scale issue. As the campaign progresses, there are more and more backers. Each add on eats into their profit margin. There are more backers, but they are still getting less profit per backer. This is the way every KS has worked that I've ever backed, whether by CMON or any other company.
This assumes that we are actually unlocking things and they have not already decided on including everything, even the stuff to come. I don't believe that is the case nor do most other people.

In fact a central point of my argument has been that they are falsely gating content that is already going into the box to create hype. Once you take that to be the case, then there is no reason to be discussing economies of scale because it is all unlocked anyway.
 
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ras2124 wrote:
Dormammu wrote:
ras2124 wrote:
Consider, the current 4 Fox Clan goals have required $90k, $90k, $100k, and $100k increases. That is $380k to unlock most of the clan (and probably another $100k+ to get the Shinto). The first 5 stretch goals of the campaign were unlocked with a $150k funding increase. In fact those early $30k goals were the exact equivalent of our current $100k Fox Clan goals so why is this set of Bushi worth over 3x as much?

What you are describing here is a different topic entirely: the fact that later stretch goals require greater funding increases than earlier ones.

This is an economy of scale issue. As the campaign progresses, there are more and more backers. Each add on eats into their profit margin. There are more backers, but they are still getting less profit per backer. This is the way every KS has worked that I've ever backed, whether by CMON or any other company.
This assumes that we are actually unlocking things and they have not already decided on including everything, even the stuff to come. I don't believe that is the case nor do most other people.

Do you have any proof of this or is it only your belief?

We know the Blood Rage campaign ran out of planned stretch goals and CMON said in the comments they added more by breaking up expansions to use as stretch goals. We know the SMOG campaign very likely did not reach all possible stretch goals as the original miniatures game has miniatures that never showed up in the SMOG campaign (personally I'm annoyed by this as I wanted all the miniatures but I can understand that they didn't get enough funding to do so).
 
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