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Subject: Item Use rss

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soak man
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Soooo... when exactly is an item "used." Is it anytime the effect on the item is triggered? Or does an item have to be spent or consumed to be considered used?

I ask this because
Spoiler (click to reveal)
certain battle goals require you to use or NOT use items a certain number of times. If you have an item that affects you but does not get spent or consumed, such as Item 105
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Flea-Bitten Shawl, which reads simply "You are considered to have an initiative of 99 for the purpose of enemy focusing" (no spending or consuming required)
is it considered 'used' every time the effect applies?
Spoiler (click to reveal)
(in the case of the Flea-Bitten Shawl, would it be "used" every time there is a tie for proximity when determining focus?


Sorry for all he spoiler tags, but I don't want to upset anyone. The inners of the tags is basically about one specific item, but I imagine there are others that are similar that I haven't come across yet.
 
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Frank Pelkofer
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Re: Item Use
soakman wrote:
Soooo... when exactly is an item "used." Is it anytime the effect on the item is triggered? Or does an item have to be spent or consumed to be considered used?

I ask this because
Spoiler (click to reveal)
certain battle goals require you to use or NOT use items a certain number of times. If you have an item that affects you but does not get spent or consumed, such as Item 105
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Flea-Bitten Shawl, which reads simply "You are considered to have an initiative of 99 for the purpose of enemy focusing" (no spending or consuming required)
is it considered 'used' every time the effect applies?
Spoiler (click to reveal)
(in the case of the Flea-Bitten Shawl, would it be "used" every time there is a tie for proximity when determining focus?


Sorry for all he spoiler tags, but I don't want to upset anyone. The inners of the tags is basically about one specific item, but I imagine there are others that are similar that I haven't come across yet.


From the FAQ:
What exactly is considered using an item?
Any instance of you applying the effects of an item card to a situation is considered a use.

Link: https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1687146/official-faq/page/1

I just searched for "item"
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soak man
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Re: Item Use
Huh. Ok. Thank you, sorry for the new thread. I've read the FAQ several times and somehow missed it.
 
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David desJardins
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Re: Item Use (RESOLVED)
The FAQ still doesn't clearly answer this question. I wouldn't say this is a "use", it's just a passive effect that is always active.
 
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Frank Pelkofer
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Re: Item Use (RESOLVED)
DaviddesJ wrote:
The FAQ still doesn't clearly answer this question. I wouldn't say this is a "use", it's just a passive effect that is always active.


I do recall reading a thread where Isaac specifically said that getting hit with an x2 while wearing the iron helmet counted as a use.

But, I would claim that it's hard to interpret the FAQ any other way. If the item is having a game effect, that's a use.
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David desJardins
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Re: Item Use (RESOLVED)
countertorque wrote:
But, I would claim that it's hard to interpret the FAQ any other way. If the item is having a game effect, that's a use.


Huh. I would say exactly the opposite. "Instance of you applying." It doesn't say any time the item itself does anything, it says when you do something.
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Re: Item Use (RESOLVED)
DaviddesJ wrote:
countertorque wrote:
But, I would claim that it's hard to interpret the FAQ any other way. If the item is having a game effect, that's a use.


Huh. I would say exactly the opposite. "Instance of you applying." It doesn't say any time the item itself does anything, it says when you do something.

But if you read the item text and work that into the flow of the game turn ("Is this situation a tie? OK, the card says the outcome is XYZ."), the very action of adjusting the game flow IS applying the card. And you did it, since you read the card.
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David desJardins
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Re: Item Use (RESOLVED)
GAFBlizzard wrote:
But if you read the item text and work that into the flow of the game turn ("Is this situation a tie? OK, the card says the outcome is XYZ."), the very action of adjusting the game flow IS applying the card. And you did it, since you read the card.


So you're saying that if someone ELSE in my party reads the card and carries out the monster turn, then I'm NOT using the item?
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Frank Pelkofer
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Re: Item Use (RESOLVED)
DaviddesJ wrote:
countertorque wrote:
But, I would claim that it's hard to interpret the FAQ any other way. If the item is having a game effect, that's a use.


Huh. I would say exactly the opposite. "Instance of you applying." It doesn't say any time the item itself does anything, it says when you do something.


I read it as anytime a player via the act of playing the game modifies the outcome of a game situation due to an item, it counts as a use of that item. That's different than a player making a decision to take an action within the game.

So, I guess I agree that it could be worded more clearly after all

Just curious: are you a programmer or a lawyer? That's intended as a completely sincere and honest question.
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David desJardins
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Re: Item Use (RESOLVED)
countertorque wrote:
Just curious: are you a programmer or a lawyer? That's intended as a completely sincere and honest question.


I'm a mathematician. So more precise than either of those.
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Michael Bennett
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Re: Item Use (RESOLVED)
DaviddesJ wrote:
GAFBlizzard wrote:
But if you read the item text and work that into the flow of the game turn ("Is this situation a tie? OK, the card says the outcome is XYZ."), the very action of adjusting the game flow IS applying the card. And you did it, since you read the card.


So you're saying that if someone ELSE in my party reads the card and carries out the monster turn, then I'm NOT using the item?


Unfortunately it's a battle goal for your character and your character would be making use of the items effects whether you or another player carried out the actual physical actions.

If that's your battle goal simply don't take those item with you into the dungeon, or try and avoid situations where it is the deciding factor in determining the outcome of a result.
 
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David desJardins
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Re: Item Use (RESOLVED)
MikeKBennett wrote:
If that's your battle goal simply don't take those item with you into the dungeon, or try and avoid situations where it is the deciding factor in determining the outcome of a result.


First I'll wait for an actual answer to the question from Isaac, if that's ok.
 
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Re: Item Use (RESOLVED)
MikeKBennett wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:
GAFBlizzard wrote:
But if you read the item text and work that into the flow of the game turn ("Is this situation a tie? OK, the card says the outcome is XYZ."), the very action of adjusting the game flow IS applying the card. And you did it, since you read the card.


So you're saying that if someone ELSE in my party reads the card and carries out the monster turn, then I'm NOT using the item?


Unfortunately it's a battle goal for your character and your character would be making use of the items effects whether you or another player carried out the actual physical actions.

If that's your battle goal simply don't take those item with you into the dungeon, or try and avoid situations where it is the deciding factor in determining the outcome of a result.


This is precisely why I wanted to know. I will happily leave my item at home if I need to, but since it triggers automatically and you can't choose to NOT "use" it, I would need to know one way or the other.
 
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Alex Florin
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Re: Item Use (RESOLVED)
My sense is that Isaac just didn't consider passive uses when he worded it and the intent is that they are included. I certainly interpreted it that way.

If true, the entry should read:

"Any instance of you applying the effects of an item card to a situation is considered a use"
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Isaac Childres
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Re: Item Use (RESOLVED)
The effects of the iron helmet count as a use. David, how would you word the ruling? All instances where an item has an effect on the game state counts as a use?
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Alex Florin
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Re: Item Use (RESOLVED)
I was composing my post when you responded I think.

My suggestion is to drop the "you" from the statement.
 
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David desJardins
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Re: Item Use (RESOLVED)
Cephalofair wrote:
The effects of the iron helmet count as a use. David, how would you word the ruling? All instances where an item has an effect on the game state counts as a use?


If you answer the OP's question, what counts as a use for:

Spoiler (click to reveal)
Item 105, Flea-Bitten Shawl, which reads simply "You are considered to have an initiative of 99 for the purpose of enemy focusing"


then it might be easier to say what the general rule should be.

Spoiler (click to reveal)
Maybe the rule should be, if the item changes what otherwise would have happened in the game. I.e., if the Flea-Bitten Shawl changes which hero a monster focuses on, then that counts as a 'use', but not if the monster ends up focusing on the same hero they otherwise would have?
 
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David desJardins
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Re: Item Use (RESOLVED)
aflorin wrote:
If true, the entry should read:

"Any instance of you applying the effects of an item card to a situation is considered a use"


It's still not particularly clear how to apply that to the OP's question.
 
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Alex Florin
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Re: Item Use (RESOLVED)
DaviddesJ wrote:
aflorin wrote:
If true, the entry should read:

"Any instance of you applying the effects of an item card to a situation is considered a use"


It's still not particularly clear how to apply that to the OP's question.


Yes, I missed the OP part about it not resulting in a change due to tied initiatives, dropping the "you" is insufficient.

How about:
"If an item alters an ability, an effect or a figure's performed action, it is considered a use."

Are there item effects that apply to something other than abilities and figures' actions?

Edit: "Resultant" may not be clear enough.

Edit: "Performed" is better I think.
 
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Alex Florin
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Re: Item Use (RESOLVED)
Looking through some item cards that aren't spent or consumed, gaining a persistent ability like flying is also questionable. The wording would depend on whether it is considered used every time you move or just once when you gain the ability at the beginning of the scenario. If the former, my wording works.
 
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Re: Item Use (RESOLVED)
Unless someone bugs Isaac again, this is a tough one. I guess you could say if the item causes a focus change it's a "use". Or a simpler rule would this particular item is "one use" for the entire battle, no matter how many times focus is checked.

I'd guess gaining persistent flying would also be one "use".

I don't think this question is really "RESOLVED" like the thread title indicates, though.
 
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Re: Item Use (RESOLVED)
Thinking about this even more, we discussed that the FAQ states:

"What exactly is considered using an item?"
"Any instance of you applying the effects of an item card to a situation is considered a use."

The FAQ also states:

"Equipped items are active from the beginning of the scenario, such that if an item reacts to an enemies actions, it can do so immediately."

The FAQ also also states:
"If an item card does not have circles to track multiple uses, then you can decide when to use it - it is not mandatory."



I could imagine players offering multiple interpretations. I'm a programmer, if we're analyzing how people interpret.

Example A. Let's say an item gives you [some persistent status].
A1. A player says, "I applied the effects of the card exactly once, at the start of the scenario, to gain [the persistent status]." (1 use)
A2. A player says, "I applied the effects only when I needed the status to avoid a trap." (possibly 2+ uses)

Example B. Let's say an item affects your priority regarding focus.
B1. A player says, "I applied the effects of the card exactly once, at the start of the scenario when I modified my focus value for enemies in my head." (1 use)
B2. A player says, "I applied the effects of the card each time focus changed as a result." (possibly 2+ uses)
B3. A player says, "I applied the effects every single time any enemy calculated focus, regardless of what happened." (many uses)
B4. A player says, "The item card does not have circles to track multiple uses, so per the FAQ I decided only to use it on certain turns, choosing before drawing a monster ability modifier." (some uses)



Some of those may sound sillier than others, but I could UNDERSTAND people thinking any of them which ends up being pretty confusing.
 
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Re: Item Use (RESOLVED)
GAFBlizzard wrote:
Unless someone bugs Isaac again, this is a tough one. I guess you could say if the item causes a focus change it's a "use". Or a simpler rule would this particular item is "one use" for the entire battle, no matter how many times focus is checked.

I'd guess gaining persistent flying would also be one "use".

I don't think this question is really "RESOLVED" like the thread title indicates, though.


I will edit and remove the 'resolved' indicator as there seem to still be questions here. My initial question has been answered enough for my own purposes via my interpretation of the FAQ and Isaac's input, but if there is clarity to be found in a discussion, I won't declare it dead for everyone else. Looks like I inadvertently opened a can of worms.

Per GAF's choices above, my personal interpretation would be B4.

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David desJardins
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So there's actually a question here about how the item works, not just about what counts as a "use". Is B4 correct, can the hero decide for each enemy whether the item is active or not?

In any case, I'd personally say that it's only a "use" of this item if it actually changes what the monster does, not if it just does what it would have done anyway.

Of course, Isaac could have different answers.
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DaviddesJ wrote:
So there's actually a question here about how the item works, not just about what counts as a "use". Is B4 correct, can the hero decide for each enemy whether the item is active or not?

In any case, I'd personally say that it's only a "use" of this item if it actually changes what the monster does, not if it just does what it would have done anyway.

Of course, Isaac could have different answers.


That's my interpretation as well. I originally thought you would have no choice so long as you were using the item, but the FAQ seems to make that distinction since it does not have a 'usage tracker.'

GAFBlizzard wrote:
The FAQ also also states:
"If an item card does not have circles to track multiple uses, then you can decide when to use it - it is not mandatory."


My other question about the item (which I think I know the answer to), is does it affect your summons? The card does say 'YOU' specifically, but summons use your initiative.

Spoiler (click to reveal)
We ruled that the character would get an initiative 99 for proximity ties, but the summon would use the initiative on the lead card despite the summoner's artificial 99 initiative for focus.
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