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Subject: Gloomhaven - First Plays, First Thoughts (No Spoliers) rss

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Dr. Dam
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I don't return to this format of session report/review often...only when something makes me sit up and take notice or conversely I find it underwhelming and want to share with others.

This might go a little longer than planned so...

The Short Version

I've played a lot of games having rated over 1,100 of them and I'm approaching 20,000 plays. I've played many a dungeon crawler, fantasy fair and hack & slash games.

Gloomhaven is a new beast to me. I haven't played a game that uses the card play of this game (I haven't played Mage Knight though) and I haven't experienced a fantasy world like this one. I also haven't played Myth, Kingdom Death: Monster or Dark Souls so bear that in mind.

But I have played Descent 1st and 2nd Edition, Mice & Mystics, Doom and Imperial Assault to name but a few.

This is a new experience in almost every way and I'd be surprised if you have, oh fair reader.

Now for some detail.

So What Happened?

I've played Gloomhaven twice now...both times using the first quest. The first time we tried we made a serious rules screw-up and so we scrapped it after a couple of hours. We had taken perhaps an hour to go over the key mechanisms before that and by the end I went home with something of a head spin...it was a mental effort that first play to come to grips with all that Gloomhaven is.

But that play was incredibly valuable because it helped us get to grips with the basics of the game, the way the cards worked and what some of the special abilities did, not to mention how the Bandits acted.

A week later we returned to try again.

Game #1 - The Cast

Dr. Dam
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Wade Altmeier
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This is my pal's copy.

I played with the Tinkerer and the Scoundrel whilst Wade played with The Spellweaver and the Cragheart.

We took a few hits in the first room but nothing we weren't able to handle with a few heals. Wade had dropped some obstacles in the room to limit the Bandit's access to us and all in all we did pretty well. A couple of long rests later and we were ready to open the door to the next area.

It ended up being a longer hall with a mix of melee and ranged units. My Tinkerer got that look in his eye and within moments a Limpet Mine Trap was sitting in the entranceway between the two bands.

Several attacks later and the Bandits were something of a mess. Glix the Tinkerer was leading something of a charmed life, enjoying missed attacks here and reduced attacks there. The Archers had been closing though and there was some pain to be felt. The Spellweaver had entered the fray from behind our band and was somewhat exposed. Those Archers had an axe to grind this day and a ferocious attack so our first casualty as the Spellweaver crumpled to the floor.

The Cragheart and Tinkerer finished off the remaining bowmen, whilst Vannah the Scourge disarmed the trap nearest the door to the next room, thus clearing our path. Several Long Rests later and a few tricks back up our sleeve and we were ready for the final assault.

The Scoundrel opened the door and not knowing what to expect, she used her Invisibility Cloak. The room turned out to be full of Animated Skeletons and a unit of Archers at the rear. The room was a bottleneck, with two upturned tables serving as obstacles to create a choke point. The bigger problem was that two of those animated bags of bones were up in my Scoundrels grill and that meant manoeuvring was tight if not impossible to get into the room. The Cragheart and Tinkerer got in behind me and managed to loose ranged attacks that did minimal damage. The only saving grace was that the Skeletons had no valid targets and couldn't get past my hidden Scoundrel. The Archers decided to move forward slightly and they set a range of traps to make the room even tighter than it should have been.

My stealthy Vannah took the initiative in the new round and attacked both of the near Skeletons, Stunning one and severely injuring another. The Cragheart was able to finish that one off with a distant attack and Glix snuck into the room and healed the Scoundrel, ready for the Archers onslaught. Luckily for Vannah, the Archers attacks were weak (-1 penalty) and despite 4 arrows arcing their wat towards her, she only suffered 2 damage. She was able to finish off the final Skeleton in front of her and Cragheart jumped into the center of the room, weakening the other 2 Skeletons in the process.

From here things were going very well. In fact they were going so well we thought we had everything in hand and were only worried about killing all of the Bandits off before we could reach the chest (shiny!!!) . How wrong we were. The Cragheart fell first after we miscalculated some self-inflicted damage and then I blundered on my attack sequence and Vannah the Scoundrel became exhausted due to a lack of cards.

That left Glix the Tinkerer who got too cute and failed to kill the final Archer but he did summon a Decoy in the process and that bought him the time to run the Bandit through and reach the chest.

Strangely there was no sign of the Bandit Leader that had given his orders back in the first room and bolted through the doors whence we had come.

The Scoundrel had done a good job of Looting much treasure and in the process earned a Checkmark (although it would be our only one for the mission).

All members of the party had earned decent experience, ranging from 9-13 as well (bearing in mind that 45 is needed to reach level 2).

Highlights

Our play today took 4 hrs and 2 minutes. That is long...no doubt...but it didn't feel like it dragged at all. We were engaged from start to finish and always felt like we had things to think about. We need to get that time down to 2.5 hrs for sure, and I think we will, but a highlight was the engagement of the experience for sure.

The next highlight worth mentioning is how exciting it is that each villain or monster in the game has its own deck. The not knowing how fast they will be in the next round, not knowing how brutal their attacks may be or if they will go into defensive mode is super exciting. To think that this game may be inhabited by 20-40 different creatures (this is pure guess as I am avoiding reading too much) and they will all have their own style and feel is amazing. It is such an improvement over all other games of this type where you know exactly how they work and can 'game the system' to a degree.

Next is the Action Deck that each character must deal with. They really are unique and the meat of Gloomhaven is in the card selection as you try to figure out which top ability and which bottom card ability you will use this turn and what that leaves you with. Every card in your deck is valuable and using it for one option means giving up another.

But for me the highlight of exploring my Action Decks (even more so than the mechanics of using them) was the thematic things I could pull off and the tactical implications of my character. Some cards allow you to push or pull an enemy. This allows you to separate a pack of goons or draw them towards a trap. These things were cool. My Scoundrel is not a tank and therefore she shouldn't be charging headlong towards a pack of Bandits. Instead she has abilities that can gain her experience if she can pick off an enemy that doesn't have the support of an ally adjacent to them. This is thematic coolness that makes sense for my character and it lends itself to the tactical nature of the game as well. I loved that.

I could mention 4-5 more highlights but I'll leave you with just one more. The Attack Decks are really great even if they remove the need for dice (I love dice...I may marry a dice one day even). But the Attack Deck of cards for heroes and enemies is genius. Why? Quite simply it creates a sense of foreboding and a sense of hope in equal measure. But hang on a minute...dice do that too I hear you cry? That is true to some extent, but the fact that the Missed Attack and the x2 Damage are always in play in every deck counts for something more here. The Attack Decks also allow the players to know the relative ranges of possible damage to be dealt (given that most cards are -1 / 0 / +1 damage) and that allows the players to make intelligent decisions rather than be at the mercy of swingy dice rolls. It's great stuff.

Ok I'll throw one last one in as it just came to me. I like Mice & Mystics but I will concede that the game play and combat can become grindy. Despite this play being 4 hours of combat, it didn't have that same feeling. It felt fresh, compelling and interesting at all times. That's some achievement.

Oh one last point. Did I walk away with that brain-frakked feeling after session two? Not at all. The game was stimulating and took mental concentration, but it wasn't so taxing that I couldn't function as a human being afterwards.

The Mechanisms


Ok let's get to some Mechanisms, Mechanics or Mechanicisms...call them what you will.

d10-1 Action Decks - These are the heart of the Mission/Quest system, which is 90% of the game. Each character has their own deck of cards that flesh them out as a 3-Dimensional denizen of Gloomhaven. Some characters have more cards than others and the more cards you have the more actions you can take before considering the need to take a rest.

Each turn, each hero must select 2 cards and if they can't they must rest. The two cards selected will define how far a hero may move (if at all), the nature of any attacks, whether they can heal or take other special actions. They also define a hero's initiative that affects their turn order for the turn. They really are very dynamic.

Then the game does something brilliant. A character can only use the top action of 1 of those cards and the bottom action of the other. In one mechanism, the game is giving the players plenty of options but a restriction that is thought provoking to say the least. Because each deck is thematically tweaked to represent their class, some hero's may have limited movement or few ranged abilities. Getting to know your character, their strengths and limitations is just one way that Gloomhaven provides a level of depth that I haven't experienced before now.

d10-2 Limited Resources and Resting - Those Action Decks also represent to some degree the limitations of the characters. When cards are played they will end up in your Discard or Lost piles. Each deck has potentially game-changing cards that can be powerful attacks or actions. But they will usually be sent to the Lost pile and cannot be used again in the current quest. Cards that are sent to the Discard pile can be gained back by resting, but every Rest Action will result in another card being sent to the Lost discard pile (either randomly or by choice).

When a player cannot play 2 cards at the start of their turn because they are all in the Lost Pile (or all bare 1) that character is said to be exhausted. They are spent, having reached the limits of their physical and/or mental capabilities. In this way the game has something of a built-in alarm clock. Other games try to thematically represent this with fatigue levels and the like and they do work. But not as good as this. Not in a way where you know that you can't burn your candle too fast without facing the consequences.

d10-3 Tactical Nature - Other games create a tactical miniatures game through elaborate line of sight rules and the need to stay at distance (for ranged attacks) or too close to melee range to hack away.

Gloomhaven has these elements but they are only the beginning. Here the game also wants you to think about the positioning of your party (for healing purposes, bestowing defensive benefits and the like) as well as the positioning of the enemy. Other games like Descent have this too to a degree but here it feels different, richer somehow. Some attacks can affect an area of a certain size and pattern. The players must find a way to draw the enemy to various points, use push or pull powers like Chain Gun (that name may be wrong as I don't have the game in front of me) to manoeuvre them in a way that you can gain the maximum advantage. In this way it shares something with the nature of a game like Tash-Kalar: Arena of Legends or Neuroshima Hex.

d10-4 Life Goals and Battle Goals - As well as the general philosophy of each character being spelled out in their flavour text, each hero also gets given a Life Goal, that thing that drives them over the course of their time in your party. In addition each mission sees each character receive a Battle Card/Goal (I forget the exact title). These represent a specific goal that they can try to achieve on this one outing.

What both of these elements represent are chances for the players to imbue their game play with something edging towards role-playing considerations. It may impact on their desire to do certain things during road and city events, which side-quests they want to explore and the like. The Battle Cards are really neat because they can change how you play from one mission to the next and they have a real benefit for pursuing...

d10-5 Checkmarks, Perks and Specialisation - If a character manages to complete their Battle Card (only revealed at the end of the mission) they earn a Checkmark. This is recorded on the character sheet for the hero and when 3 are completed the player earns a Perk. A Perk is a card that can be added to their Battle Deck, which in turn mixes up what they can do to enhance their combat effectiveness. I think this is genius.

d10-6 The Extras - Gloomhaven has some clever and novel ways to manage things we have seen for a long time, like the difference between normal and elite units of the same type. This is done by having 4-sided enemy cards that slip into a sleeve that hides the other 3 sides. These cards manage everything from scaling (how many enemies to put out based on the number of players) to outlining the stats for both normal and elite versions.

Combine this with a well-developed scenario book that also has a few novel features and Gloomhaven has shown Fantasy Flight a few new tricks that they are likely to take notice of. For me this is good for the industry too as companies sometimes need to be inspired by others. In time everyone benefits.

I also like how items and equipment in Gloomhaven isn't the 'out of control' game-crusher that it can be in other systems. Here gear is treated more as an accessory and whilst the benefits can be handy, they are not match winners in any way and often are only one or two use features. This allows the actions of the characters to be the stars and the game doesn't have to worry about the heroes 'jumping the shark Ettin' so to speak.

On that point, many a Dungeon Delving Game will use equipment as the way to thematically enhance a character. In Gloomhaven the many names of the cards in the Action Deck and their in-game effects (targeting more than one enemy for example) do this wonderfully well without having to hang a thousand pieces of gear off of your hero. I have already fallen in love with my Scoundrels Throwing Knives for example. There is no artwork associated with them, just their affect and what I can do with them.

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The Final Word

Where's the line between fanboy and admirer? Don't know and don't really care. I just like giving credit where it is due that is all. And to put this into perspective, I didn't back the Kickstarter. In fact I saw all the hype over several months, ignored the game completely because of it and finally had the time to read a few things a month or so ago. I have no financial attachment to this game and was coming from a position of 'I reject mass adoration'.

I haven't even touched on the legacy/world building aspects of the game yet either. I think they will be pretty cool in time but I don't expect to get the same short burst hit as I did with Risk and Pandemic Legacy. But I am ok with that as this is a different beast after all.

But Gloomhaven will not be for everyone, of that there can be no doubt.

You may really like this if :-


mb You are ok with long gaming sessions. If you have played as the Overlord in Descent 1st edition, play for 2-3 hrs at a stretch with The Hunters or some other solo game, then you will find this to be no problem.

mb You have an RPG (real world or digital) background and love to flesh out your character, see how decisions you make affect the group and you. If you love open world video games where side quests pop up and you feel free to roam somewhat at your choosing, then Gloomhaven may be your happy place.

mb If combat and/or tactical games are your thing. I cannot stress enough the nature of the core of Gloomhaven. It is about disposing of the enemy in the most efficient manner to get the objectives completed. It is about careful manoeuvring and placement of your characters, about finishing 'that thing' off this round before it can do any more damage to us. It is about using the tools in your Action deck to the best of their ability.

mb If you like being beaten down, can accept that you will make poor decisions and then learn from them. You have to accept that this is not a game where your character or characters will walk out of the mission every time. In fact they may only walk out 40-60% of the time. In fact I can see Gloomhaven being a game where (not knowing what is beyond that next door) you may make some decisions and burn a powerful card early, only to find it was critical in the last stage of the quest. If you are happy to spend 3 hrs on a session only to find this may be the case, then Gloomhaven may be for you. It may seem harsh but it is damned exciting.

Spoiler (click to reveal)
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If you are happy to love and let go, because at some point you will be saying goodbye to your beloved character if they complete their life's objectives. But then you get to add a new character to your party and get to know them. With unlock boxes numbering in the high teens for characters, there is a lot of content just in characters to explore.

mb You are into deep thinking and communication with your fellow players. In our first bungled attempt, Wade and I didn't talk that much about possible actions and how to support one another. We just went about our thing and it was something of a disaster. The rules for communication and what can and can't be said are pretty well written. But communication is essential in Gloomhaven because you really need to make every action effective else those villains and beasts are going to play Hacky Sack with your noggin'. This takes time but it is rewarding.

mb You are comfortable with slow character development and don't need instant gratification after every session. If you are willing to leave traditional models of Fantasy dungeon delving games at the door (the fact that your equipment won't define your character necessarily) then this may well be for you.

mb You like games where you are not grappling with a tome of rules but instead the implications of those rules and what they allow you to do. This is a massively important point to make. The rulebook looks like a beast but as my game playing partner Wade said, 'The game isn't really that rules-heavy. It can be situation heavy at time but the game is actually quite intuitive. The core of the mechanisms are pretty straight forward.' He is spot on with that. We are only 2 sessions in and I am having none of the FaQ, back and forward flicking rule-finding nightmare that can be Descent (I still love you too...stop being so needy Descent!) .

So the obvious question...who should avoid Gloomhaven? I don't think I need to go into this too deeply as you will know your own personal mileage if you've come this far. In fact you were probably somewhat pre-disposed to liking the game simply because you were interested in reading this article in the first place.

Defining Thoughts and Ponderings?

Gloomhaven is a defining design and Isaac Childres should be applauded for what he has created...whether it is for you or not. This is bold, genuinely new in its scope and mostly in its execution. That is a damned hard thing to do. I think he may have broken some games for me to a degree as I will now be expecting my enemies to behave in non-deterministic ways from now on. That is exciting! If Gloomhaven were a movie it would probably be La La Land and taking many awards for breaking new ground. Sure the movie musical has been done before, but not quite like this. Will it spawn a plethora of copy-cat designs? I think it is less likely in this case for several reasons (not least of which is financial and Isaac has not looked to gouge the community). But I do think many elements are a game changer and I think companies will look to borrow elements of the design.

But there are some serious realisations about Gloomhaven that you need to understand. I consider a design like this as a 'lifestyle' game. The other design of recent times that also falls into this category is Kingdom Death Monster, which I avoided for this reason. A Lifestyle game is one that will monopolise your gaming time...it takes commitment and many, many return visits to reap the joys of the system. This is a big deal because if you love playing many different games, have a shelf of 20+ games still in shrink on your shelves or your gaming time is limited due to life at the best of times...well...Gloomhaven is going to monopolise your time to get the most out of it. There are easily over 100+ hours in this thing and the reality is that even if Wade and I got together once a week (which ain't going to happen) well we could be at this beast for years.

I'm pretty sure I want to give it a crack as this is I think the quasi-RPG experience I've been looking for. I will have to live with hearing muted sobs from many a game on my shelves as they feel neglected to some degree. This is one cost of investing in Gloomhaven, with tie being far more valuable to most of us than money.

This also brings me to another difficult question. Do I really need to own the game myself? In truth this is a no. I want to play it with a close mate as well and maybe one of my sons but heck, where would I find the time? But I think I need to own the game regardless as I am something of a collector and this is an important design on the path of gaming evolution. How much play it gets...we will have to see.

Ok I think I am done for now. Thanks for reading and any discussion is welcome as I have not touched on many an element such as how many characters to play and the like.

This Session Report was brought to you by -

A gamer that prefers to play 3 light-medium games in the time that a heavy title takes to play. And yet I said all of the above. Go figure.
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Dr. Dam
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For those wondering what our initial muck up was - We were using the deck of all extra Battle Deck cards instead of the generic starting decks.

The number of roll over cards we were pulling was a bit silly and we finally clicked.
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C&H Schmidt
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Thanks for the review; a very thorough examination.

BUT: the "No spoilers" in the heading is, in my opinion, misleading.
The character picture is a spoiler. The two other pictures I hadn't yet seen either as far as I remember (and I looked at what was available during the Kickstarter), so those may be spoilers, too.
Why not replace them with pictures of the starting characters?

The scenario description is a bit spoilery, too.

I am not very bothered, but others may be.
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Sky Zero
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Gswp wrote:
Thanks for the review; a very thorough examination.

BUT: the "No spoilers" in the heading is, in my opinion, misleading.
The character picture is a spoiler. The two other pictures I hadn't yet seen either as far as I remember (and I looked at what was available during the Kickstarter), so those may be spoilers, too.
Why not replace them with pictures of the starting characters?

The scenario description is a bit spoilery, too.

I am not very bothered, but others may be.


I wouldn't consider the pictures a spoiler.
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Dr. Dam
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Gswp wrote:
Thanks for the review; a very thorough examination.

BUT: the "No spoilers" in the heading is, in my opinion, misleading.
The character picture is a spoiler. The two other pictures I hadn't yet seen either as far as I remember (and I looked at what was available during the Kickstarter), so those may be spoilers, too.
Why not replace them with pictures of the starting characters?

The scenario description is a bit spoilery, too.

I am not very bothered, but others may be.


Thanks for the heads up but I really can't consider anything as a spoiler.

Artwork is artwork - I didn't label anything.

The first scenario would be like less than 1% of all the games content and some of it can even be found in the rulebook.
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Phil McDonald
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Neil, you could have played another session in the time it took you to write that review! I consider that a gross dereliction of duty... But well done

I've had the game less than a month but our 3p group has already got 24 hours of play time under our belts and are still gagging to play more. That is the biggest compliment I can give to the game, because we rarely used to play a game more than once before moving on as we have so many games.

Of my collection, only Paths of Glory and Memoir '44: Operation Overlord with battle maps have had more play time and I've had them for many years.
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Dr. Dam
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philmcd wrote:
Neil, you could have played another session in the time it took you to write that review! I consider that a gross dereliction of duty... But well done

I've had the game less than a month but our 3p group has already got 24 hours of play time under our belts and are still gagging to play more. That is the biggest compliment I can give to the game, because we rarely used to play a game more than once before moving on as we have so many games.

Of my collection, only Paths of Glory and Memoir '44: Operation Overlord have had more play time and I've had them for many years.


Cheers Phil.

So how does the group feel about this game keeping you from other titles you would like to play?

That will be my dilemma really.
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Phil McDonald
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Neil Thomson wrote:
philmcd wrote:
Neil, you could have played another session in the time it took you to write that review! I consider that a gross dereliction of duty... But well done

I've had the game less than a month but our 3p group has already got 24 hours of play time under our belts and are still gagging to play more. That is the biggest compliment I can give to the game, because we rarely used to play a game more than once before moving on as we have so many games.

Of my collection, only Paths of Glory and Memoir '44: Operation Overlord have had more play time and I've had them for many years.


Cheers Phil.

So how does the group feel about this game keeping you from other titles you would like to play?

That will be my dilemma really.


None of us can bear the thought of playing anything else but GH at the moment, even though there are other games that we'd like to play and soon 7th Continent will be arriving. But even 7C will have to wait it's turn.
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Dr. Dam
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philmcd wrote:
Neil Thomson wrote:
philmcd wrote:
Neil, you could have played another session in the time it took you to write that review! I consider that a gross dereliction of duty... But well done

I've had the game less than a month but our 3p group has already got 24 hours of play time under our belts and are still gagging to play more. That is the biggest compliment I can give to the game, because we rarely used to play a game more than once before moving on as we have so many games.

Of my collection, only Paths of Glory and Memoir '44: Operation Overlord have had more play time and I've had them for many years.


Cheers Phil.

So how does the group feel about this game keeping you from other titles you would like to play?

That will be my dilemma really.


None of us can bear the thought of playing anything else but GH at the moment, even though there are other games that we'd like to play and soon 7th Continent will be arriving. But even 7C will have to wait it's turn.


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Nigel Buckle
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I think playing 2 characters each really lengthens the game. If that's not an issue for you, great, but if you'd rather get a couple of scenarios in a session then try it with a character each instead.

I suspect 2 characters each is longer than 4 players with one character each, as you have to do quite a bit of planning in this game and it's easier (at least for me anyway) to focus on one character/hand of cards rather than juggle two.

The game scales really well for character count, less characters = less monsters and lower Boss HP.
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Cheers Nigel for the feedback. I suspect you are totally right but most suggestions seemed to be to go with 4 characters.

The issue with having 4 players is of course in getting them together regularly.

I think we will get better over time. We will see.
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Trond Roaas
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Neil Thomson wrote:

Thanks for the heads up but I really can't consider anything as a spoiler.

Artwork is artwork - I didn't label anything.

Spoilers are spoilers - I want to discover the characters myself in the game - including the artwork.

Please replace the images with images of starting characters or something else that does not need to be unlocked, or put the images in spoilers. Or at least label your post "[Spoiler images]" or similar. The text "(No spoilers) is blatantly wrong.

Apart from that - thank you for a great writeup - a good story and a very nice summary of the game, with interesting musings on the rules.

Edit: Isaac censored the locked character art in the standee image, and wrote the following in the kickstarter:
Quote:
Be forewarned that while the miniatures box comes spoiler-free, the standees will be delivered as a single bare punch-board and may ruin the surprise of some of the unlocked character images.
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I put a spoiler around the offending image.
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Phil McDonald
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70 hours of game time now and we are still exclusively playing GH. It will feel like going cold turkey when we finish the campaign
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philmcd wrote:
70 hours of game time now and we are still exclusively playing GH. It will feel like going cold turkey when we finish the campaign


The new crack eh?

Good stuff.
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mike m
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palisades park
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philmcd wrote:
Neil Thomson wrote:
Cheers Phil.

So how does the group feel about this game keeping you from other titles you would like to play?

That will be my dilemma really.


None of us can bear the thought of playing anything else but GH at the moment, even though there are other games that we'd like to play and soon 7th Continent will be arriving. But even 7C will have to wait it's turn.

GH vs 7C will be a dilemma many of us will face, myself included. meeple I don't know that there is time in our lives to do both campaigns really.

Which is the #1 reason why my son and i are doing 1 char each and not 2. I am tempted by the richer experience with more content and tactical interactions that 4 chars gives, but i want to limit the play time. We can get our scenarios done in 90 mins or less bec half or fewer enemies and decisions. Getting through the entire campaign will be a very filling experience even with 2 chars!

i agree it is a great game though, and appreciate this excellent write up!
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Dr. Dam
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KILLARA
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SirWashington wrote:
philmcd wrote:
Neil Thomson wrote:
Cheers Phil.

So how does the group feel about this game keeping you from other titles you would like to play?

That will be my dilemma really.


None of us can bear the thought of playing anything else but GH at the moment, even though there are other games that we'd like to play and soon 7th Continent will be arriving. But even 7C will have to wait it's turn.

GH vs 7C will be a dilemma many of us will face, myself included. meeple I don't know that there is time in our lives to do both campaigns really.

Which is the #1 reason why my son and i are doing 1 char each and not 2. I am tempted by the richer experience with more content and tactical interactions that 4 chars gives, but i want to limit the play time. We can get our scenarios done in 90 mins or less bec half or fewer enemies and decisions. Getting through the entire campaign will be a very filling experience even with 2 chars!

i agree it is a great game though, and appreciate this excellent write up!


That is an excellent point Mike and one I will have to consider carefully too.
 
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