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Subject: Wow. This game is not for me. rss

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Justin Rizzo
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Not a fan of games that have a high degree of luck. I would say this game is 75% luck.

I picked it up off a friend for $10 because he hated it. He is a Catan fan, I'm obviously not. However, seeing the setup I (incorretly) assumed that the luck was reduced because each player started with the same regions. Turns out, the regions are the same, but the DICE on them are NOT.

Game is essentially ruined for me right there, but I pressed on.

I played 7 turns in a row, not a single wool earned (meanwhile she is full of wool, due to the differing starting regions). My entire hand required wool. I traded a card out every turn...new card required wool 5 of the 7 times. By the time I finally had 3 of a resource to trade for 1 wool, my partner was so far ahead of me on her side it was essentially game over.

So for 7 turns I was unable to do anything and my only two strategical options - trading cards or trading resources - were either unavailable to me or were working against me.

snore

Random card draw + random dice + random setup = not fun.
 
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Crazy Adam
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Re: Wow. This game is garbage.
You had me at "Wow." You lost me at "This game is garbage."
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Bill Eldard
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Re: Wow. This game is garbage.
freechinanow wrote:
You had me at "Wow." You lost me at "This game is garbage."

I agree with you -- I actually prefer it to Catan. A great 2-player game.

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Justin Rizzo
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Re: Wow. This game is garbage.
freechinanow wrote:
You had me at "Wow." You lost me at "This game is garbage."


I like what you did there

I think it has a beautiful presence on the table. I also liked the variety of play options it included as well as the balance in player interaction.

That being said, I went into this hoping it was going to be a light strategy game with with luck. It turned out to be a complete flip of that. You play the cards you are given in their most logical order and only after dice rolling affords you the necessary resources to do so. The trade mechanic is just as stupid, as it is just as dependent on dice rolls...

Any game in which you have to pass on doing anything for more than 3 turns is garbage. More than 5 turns is dumpster level garbage.
 
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Derry Salewski
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Re: Wow. This game is garbage.
So . . . is the friend that (warnedly) scammed you out of ten bucks still a friend?
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Justin Rizzo
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Re: Wow. This game is garbage.
We actually had an agreement that I could try it out before buying it. Whew. Dodged that turd bullet!

I really wanted to like this, since my experiences with Catan in the past have been spoiled by "whack the leader" and "wife alliances", hahaha.

However, watching any possibility of choice, strategy, or maneuverability go out the window within the first 10 turns just ruined it for me.
 
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Mayor Jim
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Re: Wow. This game is garbage.
I tend to agree with the OP. Wife and I played it twice and never went back. The game sounded fun, but it really has way too much luck. Might as well spend an evening flipping a coin or just rolling a die cry
 
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Justin Rizzo
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Re: Wow. This game is garbage.
MayorJim wrote:
Might as well spend an evening flipping a coin or just rolling a die cry


Took the words right out of my mouth. That is EXACTLY what I said to her 15 minutes into the game.

I wasn't enjoying having no choices for 5 turns, but neither would I have enjoying winning in this game. It wouldn't have felt earned.

A shame, because there is a lot to like here otherwise.
 
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Sam Stone
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Re: Wow. This game is garbage.
We have been playing this once or twice a week for a over a year now. I am sorry to hear you are not willing to take the time to find the many varieties of game play available from this great lightweight game.

After so many games, I would say the game is less than 20% luck. There are many cards to mitigate your less-useful rolls. Each Age has a different flavor in the event deck and approach to get VPs. Yes, you will lose, but not all the time.

As with any game with dice, there is some luck involved. I am glad for this, as we would have long otherwise solved this particular puzzle. The varying numbers on each player's regions is so that each person get different resources from each roll.

I would agree that having a turn with nothing done is frustrating. That is why we made a simple variant to fix this one small niggle.
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Team Ski
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Re: Wow. This game is garbage.
I completely disagree with your entire assessment! The game is a classic 2 player card game and one I have played many times over the years. It just isn't for you.

-Ski
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Justin Rizzo
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Re: Wow. This game is garbage.
Stonebeard wrote:
After so many games, I would say the game is less than 20% luck.


Not being salty or argumentative here, as it's possible expansions or the non-introductory modules included in the base game resolve our experience, but I don't see how that is even possible. The games primary mechanics are dice and card draw, which both equate to luck.

I had a solid 5 turns where I was unable to do anything. Out of 4 cards in my hand 75% required at least one wool, and those 3 cards had a cumulative wool cost of 4. I had a solid 5 turns with no wool gain, no region with which I could trade 3:1 for a wool, and despite trading a card for 4 turns in a row, I didn't gain another card that didn't require wool.

If that's not luck, I do not know what is. After 5 turns of just rolling, trading a card, and taking NO actions I finally got a wool. But, by that time, my wife was so far ahead in production, buildings and VP there was no point in playing the remaining 15 minutes. We both consented it was silly. If the starting boards were symmetrical this would have been a different story. I think that's a terrible design idea.

This is a light, casual game. I was hoping for something more.
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Re: Wow. This game is garbage.
Maybe I'm remembering the rules wrongly, but don't you choose your starting 3 cards? And can't you pay 2 resources to choose a new card rather than taking one randomly?

I definitely remember not liking the introductory game very much, and feeling it was much improved when we added a set of the Age Of... cards.
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Justin Rizzo
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Re: Wow. This game is garbage.
cassetteboy wrote:
Maybe I'm remembering the rules wrongly, but don't you choose your starting 3 cards? And can't you pay 2 resources to choose a new card rather than taking one randomly?

I definitely remember not liking the introductory game very much, and feeling it was much improved when we added a set of the Age Of... cards.


In the introductory module you don't choose your 3 starting cards and correct, you can pay 2 resources to chose a new card instead of taking one randomly.

After two turns of random draw and getting behind, I didn't feel like it would be wise to blow my resources on searching for a specific building. In hindsight, it may have helped, but I don't think it would have changed our opinion of the game much. I would say the same thing about the age cards.

This is just not a great game. And here is why, any game where you can have multiple turns where you do nothing is a bad game. I own Roll for the Galaxy, which is in my opinion how you do a luck driven game. I can ALWAYS do something useful on my turn. Random tiles have two sides and you have a nice way to pull a crap ton out of the bag. Random dice have tons of mitigation. I suppose there might be elements of this in the other modules of Catan, but our first experience was so sour and since we already own a better game, this one will not hit my hallowed table again.
 
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Jens V
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Re: Wow. This game is garbage.
JustinRRizzo wrote:
In the introductory module you don't choose your 3 starting cards and correct, you can pay 2 resources to chose a new card instead of taking one randomly.

So you haven't played the real game. Didn't you consider that the introductory game could be "100% luck", but the actual game might be different? Because, you see, being able to choose the first three cards makes a big difference: you already know where about 20% of the cards are and which will come up next from one pile; and you can choose cards which will be the base for your strategy of the current game.

True, dice rolls and card draws are random. But the combination of cards you're using/building will decrease the luck factor immensely.

The game just might not be your thing, but I wouldn't discard it just because you didn't like the amount of luck in the introductory game.

In a typical game, I'd say there are between 0 and 2 turns in which you can't do anything (i.e. not build anything or use a card), and when that is the case, it's most of the time in the end game when you don't yet have the (up to 8) resources you need to build the card that will make you win the game.
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Justin Rizzo
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Re: Wow. This game is garbage.
Vertaler wrote:
JustinRRizzo wrote:
In the introductory module you don't choose your 3 starting cards and correct, you can pay 2 resources to chose a new card instead of taking one randomly.

So you haven't played the real game. Didn't you consider that the introductory game could be "100% luck", but the actual game might be different? Because, you see, being able to choose the first three cards makes a big difference: you already know where about 20% of the cards are and which will come up next from one pile; and you can choose cards which will be the base for your strategy of the current game.

True, dice rolls and card draws are random. But the combination of cards you're using/building will decrease the luck factor immensely.

The game just might not be your thing, but I wouldn't discard it just because you didn't like the amount of luck in the introductory game.


I think your point is very valid, but I don't think this game is going to trump my copy of Roll for the Galaxy no matter what it does - new rules, modules or expansions, it simply won't be enough. First impressions are strong, even if it's a "introductory learning" one. It was a bad one. I don't want to build on a bad foundation when there are other games that have a great foundation to begin with. I hope that doesn't sound rude.
 
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Derek Whaley
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Re: Wow. This game is garbage.
My partner and I always roll two D6s rather than one to speed up the game and increase the odds of getting something useful (or being able to trade for something useful). Not a perfect solution, but definitely one way of reducing the randomness problem.
 
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Manolis Talos
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Re: Wow. This game is garbage.
Well me and my wife love this game. Especially when adding expansions. We bought all the expansions which gives us 9 different expansions to choose from with even more combinations.

The game is awesome. Luck of dice roll for resources, but you just try to eliminate that by expanding and getting more villages.

We love this game and it's an awesome 2 player game.

(we also love Targi which hits the table more often)
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Reiner Dr. Düren
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Re: Wow. This game is garbage.
Lack of wool should not determine the course of the game since wool isn't a very important resource. To build a new settlement, which gives a victory point and more income, you need 1 wool, 1 grain, 2 lumber and 3 brick, a city, which gives another victory point and two places for cards, needs 3 ore and 2 grain. You see all other resources - except gold - are used in higher amounts. Of course there are three buildings (Market Place, Store house, and Weaver's Shop) and some units (Trade Ships, Candamir, Inga, Osmund, and Siglind) which need wool. But when you draw more than one of these cards at the start of the game, you should consider these points:
- the Market Place only makes sense when your opponent has more settlements than you, therefore keep in till your opponent has more settlements.
- the Store House is useful when you have a high income of resources, expecially when you get much wool and gold.
- the Weaver's shop makes sense when you can build it between two pastures.
- Inga will give you in most cases the majority of skill points and an extra resources when the event "Celebration" is rolled.
- Candamir will give you the victory point from the Hero Token, but you need 2 wool. When you have drawn Candamir you should keep him in your hand, at least to avoid that your opponent will get him.
- Osmund can be the start to the Hero token, but you need at least one additional hero.
- Siglind is mostly too expensive and more a card to turn the game in the final stage.
- Trade ships make sense when you have a high income of a special resource, e.g. by Production booster cards, and can be the start for the Trade Token.

Since you start with one wool, most of these cards except Candamir and Siglind, can be build at the beginning of the game, but you should only build them when it makes sense.

Some more tips can be found here: http://www.catan.com/game/rivals-catan#tips-and-variants

Of course there is some randomness in the game, even in the introductory game, by drawing the starting cards, whereas you can choose these cards when playing the Theme Games. We have chosen the random-drawing for the introductory game, since this shall mainly teach the main rules of the game and most new players who start the game will not know which cards to choose. Therefore we thought it would be better to let the players draw the starting cards.

Dr. Reiner Düren
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Oskar 10101
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Re: Wow. This game is garbage.
JustinRRizzo wrote:
Not a fan of games that have a high degree of luck. I would say this game is 75% luck.

Game is essentially ruined for me right there, but I pressed on.

I played 7 turns in a row, not a single wool earned (meanwhile she is full of wool, due to the differing starting regions). My entire hand required wool. I traded a card out every turn...new card required wool 5 of the 7 times. By the time I finally had 3 of a resource to trade for 1 wool, my partner was so far ahead of me on her side it was essentially game over.

So for 7 turns I was unable to do anything and my only two strategical options - trading cards or trading resources - were either unavailable to me or were working against me.

snore

Random card draw + random dice + random setup = not fun.


From what I read it sounds more like your expectations of this game were off. Did someone maybe tell you this was an easy to learn light 2 player version of Catan ? It reads like you were expecting a game that you can learn, fully understand all cards and how they can interact, the various paths to victory, the intricacies, how to work with the dice, all in a single play ? and against another first time player. ? This is a game that requires you to invest plenty of time to get good at. So I am not surprised at all and understand why you would be completely disappointed after just one game.

Being good at this game requires you to invest time to learn the cards in each deck, (and there are four decks in the base game). You need to get an understanding of how many cards there are of each, fully grasp what they do, what they can do, how they interact, how you can use them against your opponent, or prevent your opponent from using them.

Once you know the cards in a deck you can then also invest in searching the piles effectively. Not just to search of a card (now that you know what card to search for) but to also understand what all the other cards are in each pile and in what order. Up to you to invest in this knowledge or not. Gone is the randomness of the piles.

The dice rolls are indeed random. But as noted above that again is the point of knowing what cards are there and finding combination of cards to control/ decrease the luck factor.

But your first impression of randomness and luck factors is not an uncommon one. Maybe this is because people see a small box with 2 player on it and automatically assume it to be a lighter version of its big brother.

Unless you are open to the complexity and intricacies of this game and willing to invest time this game is not a right match for you.
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Justin Rizzo
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Re: Wow. This game is garbage.
I was not expecting a light game, but a strategy game with a little luck.

I just think this is a bad game. No offense to those who like it. The available mechanics that "fix" my issues, don't make the game any more appealing. Nobody (in my house) wants to play a game in which they have to pass more than several turns due to dice and card draw. This is the reason why Roll is a good game, you never have to pass, you can always do something meaningful and enjoyable on your turn.

I thought for $10, what the heck, I'll take it. But with so many other great games out there, and others that do the same thing which I already own, I'd rather put that $10 to something more well rounded. It's as shame because for $20 I could have got this and and expansion, and there is a lot to like here.
 
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Richard Pickman
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Re: Wow. This game is garbage.
Quote:
I just think this is a bad game. No offense to those who like it. The available mechanics that "fix" my issues, don't make the game any more appealing. Nobody (in my house) wants to play a game in which they have to pass more than several turns due to dice and card draw. This is the reason why Roll is a good game, you never have to pass, you can always do something meaningful and enjoyable on your turn.


We don't all have to like the same things. This hobby is about having a nice time, so we should each play the games we like.

That said, the title of your post is incendiary. Clearly, a lot of people like this game, so objectively speaking, it can't be complete garbage.
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Justin Rizzo
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Re: Wow. This game is garbage.
rpickman wrote:
Quote:
I just think this is a bad game. No offense to those who like it. The available mechanics that "fix" my issues, don't make the game any more appealing. Nobody (in my house) wants to play a game in which they have to pass more than several turns due to dice and card draw. This is the reason why Roll is a good game, you never have to pass, you can always do something meaningful and enjoyable on your turn.


We don't all have to like the same things. This hobby is about having a nice time, so we should each play the games we like.

That said, the title of your post is incendiary. Clearly, a lot of people like this game, so objectively speaking, it can't be complete garbage.


You are right. I will change it. I apologize to everyone. I had just paid my taxes. Hershey PA taxes. Thought I'd play a game with the wife to cool down, and it just amped me up
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Moy Uba
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the thing i really didn't like about this game is that there is one guy who has a ton of strength and if your opponent finds him before you do you either have to commit a load of resources to searching through the stacks and playing two or three strength having people to get the strength advantage, which will potentially just get you way behind your opponent, or you have to accept that through out the game you're going to have your buildings destroyed and cards taken from your hand.

in general my girlfriend and i don't like the amount of take that in the game, but the fact that getting this one card before the other person gives you such a huge advantage just feels cheap.

the luck of the dice/draw is definitely a factor as it is in any dice or card drawing game, but it's not that big of an issue most of the time.
 
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moyuba wrote:
the thing i really didn't like about this game is that there is one guy who has a ton of strength and if your opponent finds him before you do you either have to commit a load of resources to searching through the stacks and playing two or three strength having people to get the strength advantage, which will potentially just get you way behind your opponent, or you have to accept that through out the game you're going to have your buildings destroyed and cards taken from your hand.

in general my girlfriend and i don't like the amount of take that in the game, but the fact that getting this one card before the other person gives you such a huge advantage just feels cheap.

the luck of the dice/draw is definitely a factor as it is in any dice or card drawing game, but it's not that big of an issue most of the time.
In my opinion you're placing to much importance on one card. If your opponent gets the strength advantage focus on getting the trade advantage. I find the trade advantage is more advantageous. For two reasons, one for getting the extra resource every now and then and two the cards you need to get the trade advantage are often helpful in their own right.

Also you could play nice. Whenever there's a card to be destroyed or taken allow the victim the choice of card.
 
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Adrian Hague
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moyuba wrote:
you either have to commit a load of resources to searching through the stacks

For the expansion stacks all you need to spend is 2 resources (not exactly what I'd call 'a load').

There are two expansion stacks. Spend 2 resources and search any one of the two stacks. If the card you are looking for is not in the stack you've selected, then naturally it's in the other expansion stack.

Same goes for the base-game stacks, except that with there being 3 base-game stacks you may have to spend a max. 4 resources searching 2 of the 3 stacks.
 
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