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Subject: Mana potions rss

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Mike Smith
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Mana potions say "During your turn create an element". Does that mean you can consume it on the turn you created it. Normally you create an element at the end of your turn, but the verbiage on mana potion seems to indicate otherwise.
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Isaac Childres
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No, created elements only move to strong at the end of your turn.
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Troy Laurin
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Cephalofair wrote:
No, created elements only move to strong at the end of your turn.

I get that this ensures consistency of the rules, but it does make the mana potion a bit of a strange purchase.

All other potions specifically work on the character using the potion, but it seems like characters who want to use mana (elements) really want to convince some other character in the party to buy the potion, and use it early in the turn that they want to use the mana... or else infuse the battlefield a turn in advance and hope nobody else consumes the element before you.

In your opinion, does it unbalance the potion to treat it as a different mechanic? Specifically, rather than infusing the battlefield, it acts as a separate source of mana/elements... so when consuming an element to improve an ability, you can either use a strong/waning element OR the mana potion.

Potential problems that I can see (slightly spoilery):
Spoiler (click to reveal)
This probably causes issues with the stronger mana potions though, I don't think there are too many abilities which allow consuming more than one element.

Spoiler (click to reveal)
It also reduces the effectiveness of using mana potions to infuse elements to weaken demons.

Both problems could be addressed by allowing the potion to provide mana for an ability or infuse any element... but my gut feel is that makes the potions too strong.

It's not a problem for us yet because we're yet to reach prosperity level 2, but I'm pretty sure that the spellweaver in my party is going to be upset at the RAW version of the mana potion.
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Marcel Cwertetschka
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why not give the mana potion to a party mate of the spellweaver, let that party member do the infusing for you, so you can use the element you need on your turn.
 
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Troy Laurin
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Morthai wrote:
why not give the mana potion to a party mate of the spellweaver, let that party member do the infusing for you, so you can use the element you need on your turn.

I did mention that in my post, but it seems out of keeping with the rest of the theme:
* the party of mercenaries aren't friends, but one is willing to spend their own money and use a precious small item slot to carry an item for another team member?
* if that other character retires before the character that needs mana, then the mana user needs to convince someone else to spend their own money and small item slot to buy another potion.
* if the mana user retires, the other character is left with a mana potion they don't need.
* the other character may not want or be able to move quickly enough to use the potion on the specific turn it is needed.

None of these are particularly compelling reasons. Mostly it seems weird to have an item that seems perfect for use by someone who needs mana... But actually needs to be used by someone else?

What about:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
It takes 2 mana to infuse any element. So a small mana potion can only be used in lieu of consuming an element. A 2-mana potion can either be used directly as 2 elements, or can infuse 1 element.
Makes sense, because infusing an entire battlefield is less efficient than drawing on the energy directly.
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Wes Holland

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(Unlockable class spoiler)
Spoiler (click to reveal)
There's definitely abilities that use more than one element. Specific name:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Elementalist

Specific symbol:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Triforce

Your jaw should hit the floor when you look at that guy's abilities. They're all nuts.
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Jo Bartok
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Cephalofair wrote:
No, created elements only move to strong at the end of your turn.


This is unexpected - even considering that you DRINK the potion.
 
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toeknee n
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ionas wrote:
Cephalofair wrote:
No, created elements only move to strong at the end of your turn.


This is unexpected - even considering that you DRINK the potion.


All ways of creating elements happen at the end of your turn; it's a consistent ruling. Perhaps you don't drink the potion, but pour it on the ground to create Earth, or splash it in the air to create Air, etc. As we all know, there's a lag time with element creation .
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Trang VP
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If you are drinking a mana potion to create Wind element, obviously it takes time for the body to digest the fluid and pass wind
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brian severson
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See I disagree thematically no potion that a player uses should be able to be consumed by another player or enemy unless it's my choice as the character. Personally I have house ruled that mana generating equipment is usable on your turn. Considering the amount of enemies that consume elements it would be a terrible purchase for your mana user to generate anything that can't personally effect you to an advantage. I don't have the potential of drinking a health potion that actually heals my enemy and if that item existed I wouldn't waste my gold on it. Also, making my brute use wands to generate elements does thematically ring true. Gimili isn't using Gandalf's staff, he's got a big axe.
 
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Des T.
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I apologize for going off-topic. I know the discussion of house rules belongs in a different forum. I'm just in one of those moods where the "theme" argument rubs me the wrong way.


brianseverson495 wrote:
See I disagree thematically no potion that a player uses should be able to be consumed by another player or enemy unless it's my choice as the character. Personally I have house ruled that mana generating equipment is usable on your turn. Considering the amount of enemies that consume elements it would be a terrible purchase for your mana user to generate anything that can't personally effect you to an advantage. I don't have the potential of drinking a health potion that actually heals my enemy and if that item existed I wouldn't waste my gold on it. Also, making my brute use wands to generate elements does thematically ring true. Gimili isn't using Gandalf's staff, he's got a big axe.


First of all, theme is not a valid argument when it comes to game rules. It's a logical fallacy often used to justify doing away with rules a person doesn't like. For every rules change you argue with theme, I can argue a change to the opposite effect with theme. I also find it strangely odd that players always argue "theme" when they make the game easier for themselves. I haven't seen a player say "We house ruled that potions need to be re-bought. Thematically, it doesn't make sense for them to magically refill all the time. Not for that low price."

For example: Your interpretation of how elements "thematically" work is clearly wrong. Infusion is caused by abilities saturating the area with that element. Darkness caused by a smoke bomb, Fire caused by a flame thrower, etc. On the other hand, consumption is using kinetic abilities to shape the element saturating the area to a useful effect. The delay is caused by the fact the element needs time to spread and manifest when it is unleashed.

A potion is defined as a magical liquid, it doesn't necessarily have to be imbibed. Quite a few of the potions in D&D are poured over their target or sprayed at it. The term mana, itself, stems from a polynesian word meaning "power".

It is very likely that the mana potions are concentrations of an element that are unplugged or thrown to the ground to set it free. This interpretation is backed by some of Hail's monologues referring to such destillation techniques.

Games are not designed around themes, they're designed around mechanics and balance. Your house rule changes the balance drastically and makes mana potions extremely strong, especially considering their low price tag. Perhaps you should consider making them one use to balance their power out.
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Arthur Janicek
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TrangVP wrote:
If you are drinking a mana potion to create Wind element, obviously it takes time for the body to digest the fluid and pass wind
potion of beans.
 
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Henri Hein
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DeS_Tructive wrote:

First of all, theme is not a valid argument when it comes to game rules.


I've seen you make that case before. I happen to disagree, but have not wanted to create a big discussion over it. I will respond to this, though:

DeS_Tructive wrote:

I also find it strangely odd that players always argue "theme" when they make the game easier for themselves.


In our group, we only let theme override the rules if it makes the game harder for us. Mostly it is on monster moves. We follow RAW, but sometimes a monster not moving makes no sense. We will then determine if moving it makes it easier or harder for us. If it makes it easier, we will stick to RAW.

Another controversy for us is a retired character selling all their stuff and enhancing a card. To us it feels unthematic. We haven't made a formal house rule against it, but by convention, our retired characters have refrained from the trick.

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Guðbrandur Magnússon
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You do know that you can use mana potions to then execute the mana combo on your next turn.
 
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Des T.
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hankdane wrote:


I've seen you make that case before. I happen to disagree, but have not wanted to create a big discussion over it. I will respond to this, though:

DeS_Tructive wrote:

I also find it strangely odd that players always argue "theme" when they make the game easier for themselves.


In our group, we only let theme override the rules if it makes the game harder for us.


From what I see in these forums, theme is generally not that accepted as a justification for a rule interpretation, especially if it contradicts that interpretation. Your group also seems to be the exception when it comes to thematic house rules making the game easier, if the posts here are representative of the GH community as a whole. I will admit perception bias, though: I don't frequent the variant forums much. For all I know, the variant forums could be full of players creating more difficult, or at least balanced, thematic variants.

I agree with you that dealing with variants boils down to opinion, and there's no point arguing over it. Especially not in the rules forum.
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bambang lasmono
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Cephalofair wrote:
No, created elements only move to strong at the end of your turn.


i am not sure about the rules so i check the elemental infusion rule in the rules book(online scanned pdf page 23). but from i read is the ruling is specified about ability cards that can create element, it will move the elemen token at the end of their turn. but that is only mention ability card not item, so i do think this question is valid.
and from that stand point items that generate element , that element can be used a.s.a.p.
maybe anyone could ask clarification to game designer.
 
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Dan Baker
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bloodlush wrote:
maybe anyone could ask clarification to game designer.


The person you quoted is the game designer.
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bambang lasmono
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oh so sorry. i'm not recognise him. also i have read description of item cards. it said to augment abilities , so i now see it is already explain in rule book. although it is really hard for me. my grup already played many times kickstarter scenario. but boy until now we still found , we have many misplay.
and once again i apologize to the game designer for not recognise you.
but overall really enjoy playing Gloomhaven :)
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eldur
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bloodlush wrote:
overall really enjoy playing Gloomhaven

Welcome to the gloomhaven fan club!
Agreed, it is super easy to miss rules details. Don't beat yourself up about it though. The game is somewhat flexible in that regard and as long as you're having fun, it's all good. Please do feel free to come to these forums to ask questions if you have any.

Here are a couple threads to help you along with your rules-learning adventure.
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1727703/easy-miss-rules
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1732474/common-mistakes-and...

 
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thespaceinvader -
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Who says you drink the potion? I'm assuming that you just pour it out on the floor or throw it like a smoke grenade.

Mana potions are great, but you need to use them with preparation, either by your allies having them and using them for you, or by using them a turn in advance of when you need them.
 
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