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Subject: 2 player variant? rss

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Apichart Eungprasert
Thailand
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If it possible to play this game with two players while each player control 2 clans. These two clans automaticly become alliance every tea ceremony. Betray still become option because it can change enemy clan bushi to be yours with honor cost.I thought this variant can be play but i don't sure it will be fun. I hesitated to back this game cause i thought it to hard for me to find addition player but if it good to play with two i thought i will back this game. Any opinion?
 
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David
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A better variant would be to play a game that is designed to play well with 2 players. Negotiation is a key mechanism for the game, it just isn't going to work with two.
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Craig B
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Pigfield wrote:
If it possible to play this game with two players while each player control 2 clans. These two clans automaticly become alliance every tea ceremony. Betray still become option because it can change enemy clan bushi to be yours with honor cost.I thought this variant can be play but i don't sure it will be fun. I hesitated to back this game cause i thought it to hard for me to find addition player but if it good to play with two i thought i will back this game. Any opinion?


It should not be that hard to find a third player. You have to realise a huge part of this game is that you are in secret picking the political mandate and relying (or not) on your ally picking something useful as well so you both benefit (or you betray them devil) and this interaction as well as with everyone else's follow actions is what makes the game interesting. It's not a miniatures game with dice rolling or direct combat or anything like that where someone can just control all the miniatures. Moreover once you're then in combat you are all secretly bidding on what of 4 actions you're going to take which all have different consequences depending on who bid the most for each of the 4 options. Neither of these mechanics lend themselves well to an official 2 player variant. Sure you COULD play the game 2 player or faux-2 player but there would be pretty awful gameplay as you'd both be getting 1 follow action (so nothing much would happen) or for whatever reason controlling 2 factions each for no real reason other than to simulate having other players......

I'm sure without knowing the exact rules yet you could make up a 2 player variant (that would suck) by somehow restricting the game to 4 regions on the map and like removing a bunch of monsters, having a random tile draw for third (AI) player's political mandate, and then use a 4 sided dice to roll for what region of the map their mandate applies to somehow, and then some sort of randomizer to assign their coins for combat :/........ I dunno.... roll a 6 sided dice and if <=3 they assign 0 coins to that action, >=4 they assign 1/4 their coins to that combat action ........... Have fun! (applied after you've already selected your actions).

Good luck negotiating with the dice though! whistle

If you Roll a 1 on a six sided dice inside a black box with no lid then the AI player is secretly going to betray you!

Spoiler (click to reveal)
1d6 = (2) = 2


ninja

Hopefully my attempt at coming up with a AI variant for a game that we don't know the rules to yet helps you understand why a 2-player variant would be awful.
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Apichart Eungprasert
Thailand
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Thanks for all comments.laugh
 
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Peter Bowie
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https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/206074/solo-system

I'm sure you could do something with that as a bot player.
 
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Freelance Police
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C3Gaming wrote:
I'm sure you could do something with that as a bot player.


Yep. With a 2-player game, you can design the game where one of the two players will win, but there are other clans on the board playing. That is, NOT design a game where you're just replacing a clan with a player (such as each player plays two clans) or a AI that mimics a typical player.

Japanese feudal history *does* have the concept of major and minor clans, so you could design a bolt-on variant where the non-player clans act as minor clans. These clans would behave more like fictional historical dramas, featuring betrayal, coups, petty revenge against other clans, assassinations, mecha, catgirls, pandas and and other behavior that wouldn't win the game but make for teevee: https://search.yahoo.com/search?p=japanese+feudal+tropes&fr=...
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Sam and Max wrote:
C3Gaming wrote:
I'm sure you could do something with that as a bot player.


Yep. With a 2-player game, you can design the game where one of the two players will win, but there are other clans on the board playing. That is, NOT design a game where you're just replacing a clan with a player (such as each player plays two clans) or a AI that mimics a typical player.

Japanese feudal history *does* have the concept of major and minor clans, so you could design a bolt-on variant where the non-player clans act as minor clans. These clans would behave more like fictional historical dramas, featuring betrayal, coups, petty revenge against other clans, assassinations, mecha, catgirls, pandas and and other behavior that wouldn't win the game but make for teevee: https://search.yahoo.com/search?p=japanese+feudal+tropes&fr=...


Why did you cross out catgirls and pandas? Those are already in the game.
 
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The whole debate of a 0/1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/infity number of players is always something that sorta bugged me anyways in the boardgaming world.
I rather they be honest and design a game with a set amount of players cause simply if a game is designed for 2 then it will be fun for 2. I rather just like to know what the optimal player count for a game is.

Like I would love to know if eric lang made this game for 3-6 (maybe 8) or if he really just designed it for 5 or 6, and the other player counts are just a bit adapted. I like to play a game rather at the optimal level then have to try it with a ton of player counts. Like shadows over camelot in my eyes only plays well if you have 5 or more players. Or certain games are just too boring and too long if you have a larger number of players specially if you have a slow player in the group. (eg dominion with 8 players.)
 
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Tilou
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Velorian wrote:
The whole debate of a 0/1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/infity number of players is always something that sorta bugged me anyways in the boardgaming world.
I rather they be honest and design a game with a set amount of players cause simply if a game is designed for 2 then it will be fun for 2. I rather just like to know what the optimal player count for a game is.

Like I would love to know if eric lang made this game for 3-6 (maybe 8) or if he really just designed it for 5 or 6, and the other player counts are just a bit adapted. I like to play a game rather at the optimal level then have to try it with a ton of player counts. Like shadows over camelot in my eyes only plays well if you have 5 or more players. Or certain games are just too boring and too long if you have a larger number of players specially if you have a slow player in the group. (eg dominion with 8 players.)


Well it's nice then that BGG says precisely that on the overview-page of every game!
 
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Thaddeus MacTaggart
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Well .. you could play with 2 clans each and see how that turns out to be?

You 'd miss out on the Tea ceremony part - but that still doesn't mean it can't be a enjoyable tactical game ..
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Becq
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I really don't think that this game would play well as a 2p game ... but as a thought experiment, give this some thought -- feeling free to poke holes where necessary:

Each player plays two factions. The winner is determined by comparing the lower scoring factions of the two players. (So you can't sacrifice one faction to score points for the other.)

During the Tea Ceremony, all factions *must* ally with a faction controlled by the *other* player. If the two players disagree on the pairing, decide via highest bidder. The bid should probably be in coins, but possibly VP would work better? (Makes it harder for a player's factions to work together. Also, all factions *know* that their "ally" is working against them ... but what form will the "betrayal" take?)

Play proceeds in 'Z' order: P1A (player 1, faction A), P2A, P1B, P2B, P1A, P2A, etc.

When the 'Betray' mandate is played, one of the figures replaced must be from the same player's other faction. (Too much?)
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Mech Gamer

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I actually quite like this... the only thing I'd say is, why not have honor break the alliance-selection... so highest honour has ultimate say in the pairings, but then you can influence their decision with coins/negotiation..

I don't think I'd ever actually play this way, but it at least sounds interesting.
 
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I played a 4 player game last night and there was virtually no negotiations taking place... it felt a little like Monopoly when no one wants to sell or trade properties lol.
 
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Fülöp Zsolt
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Actually, I would go the other way around, and a bit different. You shouldn't auto-ally your own clans. Instead, I would define a modified victory condition:

You can only win, if below are fulfilled:
==========================================
- one of your clans has to have the most victory points
- one of your opponent's clans has to have the second most victory points
- your other clan has to have the 3rd most victory points (so you still cannot sacrifice it unto your other clan, because it has to be stronger than the opponent's weaker clan)
- well, surprise, your opponent's other clan has to have the least victory points

This very simple rule, in theory, ensures that you have to make use of diplomacy with your opponent. Of course, you can complicate it further with other means to ensure that players make use of the tea ceremony. Maybe this also makes the game more complex from the strategic point of view.

You may also decide the conditions of a draw etc based on how victory points are distributed in the end, but maybe it's fun going with either winning with the above conditions or in any other case the opponent wins (except when his/her clan is first), because of successfully preventing the proper distribution of victory points. This way you can also potentially play for a different order and to make sure that none of your clans is in first position.

Hope this helps!

Pigfield wrote:
If it possible to play this game with two players while each player control 2 clans. These two clans automaticly become alliance every tea ceremony. Betray still become option because it can change enemy clan bushi to be yours with honor cost.
 
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