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Subject: TO HIT FREQUENCY? God DAMN it!!!! rss

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Chris Dirk
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Can someone please explain what the frick this means? It pisses me off that there is NO reference to FREQUENCY untill this very part and then states it as if I should know what the hell it means...

"25.6 TO HIT FREQUENCY: A To Hit frequency of "0-1" is reduced by one by treating it as a "0", a To Hit frequency of "0" is reduced by one by treating it as a "1", a To Hit frequency of "1" is reduced by one by treating it as a "2", etc. Similarly, a To Hit frequency of "3" is increased by one by treating it as a "2", a To Hit frequency of "1" is increased by one by treating it as a "0", and a To Hit frequency of "0" is increased by one by treating it as a "0-1", etc."

How the hell can you reduce a number by going UP? I'm getting so sick of these rules! cry
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Grant Linneberg
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Here's what a frequency chart would look like from highest to lowest:

0-6
0-5
0-4
0-3
0-2
0-1
0
1
2
3
4
5
6

So if the original to hit frequency is, for example, 0-2, and you need to add one to the frequency, it would now hit on 0-3. If the original to hit was only on 0 and you need to subtract one from the to hit, it now hits only on a 1.

The way this works is there are more zeros than ones in the deck, more ones than twos, more twos than threes, etc.

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Fernando Robert Yu
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sushidog wrote:
Here's what a frequency chart would look like from highest to lowest:

0-6
0-5
0-4
0-3
0-2
0-1
0
1
2
3
4
5
6

So if the original to hit frequency is, for example, 0-2, and you need to add one to the frequency, it would now hit on 0-3. If the original to hit was only on 0 and you need to subtract one from the to hit, it now hits only on a 1.

The way this works is there are more zeros than ones in the deck, more ones than twos, more twos than threes, etc.



Normally the color of the number is irrelevant, BUT there are cases where you only hit on a black number so take note of these instances...
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Rich James
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Chris Dirk wrote:
How the hell can you reduce a number by going UP? I'm getting so sick of these rules! cry

You aren't reducing a number. You are reducing the chances to achieve a hit. The To Hit Frequency represents that chance.
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Chris Dirk
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arjisme wrote:
Chris Dirk wrote:
How the hell can you reduce a number by going UP? I'm getting so sick of these rules! cry

You aren't reducing a number. You are reducing the chances to achieve a hit. The To Hit Frequency represents that chance.


Oh, That's it? The whole paragraph I posted is just an example of my chances?
 
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Richard Irving
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sushidog wrote:
Here's what a frequency chart would look like from highest to lowest:

0-6 162
0-5 156
0-4 146
0-3 130
0-2 108
0-1 80
0 44
1 36
2 28
3 22
4 16
5 10
6 6


So if the original to hit frequency is, for example, 0-2, and you need to add one to the frequency, it would now hit on 0-3. If the original to hit was only on 0 and you need to subtract one from the to hit, it now hits only on a 1.

The way this works is there are more zeros than ones in the deck, more ones than twos, more twos than threes, etc.


Grant is absolutely correct--I added the number of cards in the deck for each range to above.

Any +1 To Hit (Acquisition) goes up the list, any -1 To Hit (Concealment, Smoke, Wire, etc.) goes down the list.

It should be noted:
- If the ordnance weapon malfunctions, the weapon breaks and does not hit. For example a weapon that breaks on x4-6 on a 0-4 To hit range, breaks on a Red 4.
- Normally color of RNC doesn't matter, but...
If either firer is moving or target is moving (or Hull Down), Red To Hit RNC's are treated as a Miss. If BOTH are moving, Red To Hit RNC's are treated as a Miss and the To Hit is reduced by -1.



- 25.4 & 25.43 often cause trip ups: The number (either color) drawn on a successful To hit draws adds to the effect number of the weapon, BUT ONLY IF the weapon would hit on a Black 0 (i.e. its range is 0, 0-1, 0-2, etc.) (Exceptions: AT (boxed) ordnance from AFV's, IG's and ATR add the Relative Range, not the To Hit number if they hit.)

So a Russian Mortar at RR0, hits on 1 it's effect number is never modified--it will remain a 2.

However at RR2 its To Hit Range is 0-2, it will have its Effect modified by +1 to 3 if a 1 was drawn or by +2 to 4 if a 2 was drawn on the To Hit draw.

The reasoning for this is that a single To Hit number indicates target that is hard to hit, any hit. But if a range of numbers, it is possible to not only hit it, but hit right on the nose and do more damage.
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Chris Dirk
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Sorry to be so thick on this but I'm still not getting this. What are these numbers,
0-6
0-5
0-4
0-3
0-2
0-1
0
1
2
3
4
5
6
in reference too? I get the process of acquiring and hitting a target but what am I comparing the numbers too? This I think is what's throwing me off.
 
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Martin Gallo
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This is all just probability and expectation. You are going to draw an RNC and try to "get within range". The frequency part refers to the likelihood of a hit. The range of RNCs is 0-6 with many more 0 and less 6. So 0-6 is easy while 6 is hard.
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Chris Dirk
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So again, it's all just to help in risk assessment? I could just skip this if I want to and take my chances?
 
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Mark J
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Skip it? No you need to get the correct To Hit number(s) before you draw the RNC. If it's 0-2 and your draw a 4 RNC you missed and that group is done for the turn.
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Chris Dirk
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No no. I get everything up to 25.6 It's the whole "TO HIT FREQUENCY" thing I'm having trouble with. That whole range of numbers pointed out here is what I don't get. Can I ignore all that? If I disregard it am I somehow playing it wrong? Because I'm having a real hard time wrapping my head around it. The posters have tried to help but to no avail. Unless someone can describe it in a totally different way I don't know what I'm going to do.
 
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Richard Irving
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Chris Dirk wrote:
Sorry to be so thick on this but I'm still not getting this. What are these numbers,
0-6
0-5
0-4
0-3
0-2
0-1
0
1
2
3
4
5
6
in reference too? I get the process of acquiring and hitting a target but what am I comparing the numbers too? This I think is what's throwing me off.


Ordnance weapons have a To Hit Range which us either a single number or a range of numbers for 0-N. When attempting a get a hit, you draw a card for an RNC (BIG NUMBER IN THE UPPER RIGHT CORNER) and compare to the To Hit for the weapon at that Relative Range & crewing status. For the Russian 5cm Mortar:

Effect: 2
RR To Hit
0 1 [3]
1 0-1 [1]
2 0-2 [0]
3 0-3 [0-1]
4 NA/1FP
5 NA/2FP


In order to fire a mortar have to see
If the Mortar is crewed
At RR0, the mortar will hit its target IF AND ONLY IF the RNC is 1.
At RR1, the mortar will hit its target if the RNC is either a 0 or 1.
At RR2, the mortar will hit its target if the RNC is either a 0 or 1 or 2.
At RR3, the mortar will hit its target if the RNC is either a 0 or 1 or 2 or 3.
Note: Color usually doesn't matter on the To Hit draw.

If any other number, the mortar missed. (There is also possibility of weapon malfunctioning.)

At RR4 or RR5, the weapon is too close to its target (this the NA), the crew fires its revolvers for a FP on a firepower attack in needed.

Several things can effect make easier or more difficult for the mortar to hit the target:

Acquisition (i.e. firing at the same target again) gives an advantage. This is described as "+1 To Hit". That you list don't understand is ALL POSSIBLE TO HIT RANGE VALUES FROM HIGH (Top) TO LOW (Bottom). So "+1 To Hit" means "Move to the range 1 higher on that list".

So at RR1, that mortar would have 0-1 To Hit Range that has Acquired the Target group would have a 0-2 To Hit range (Acquired = Fired at that group last time and neither the firer or target has moved, the mortar malfunctioned, etc.)



Things that make it harder to hit (such as Concealment cards played by the defender, Smoke (ea. one on either attacker or defender), wire (ea. on the firer) are described as "-1/-2/-3 To Hit", i.e. "Move to range 1/2/3 lower on the list."

Let's the defender plays a Concealment -3 card when the mortar has 0-2 To Hit. That means: 0-2 --> 0-1 --> 0 --> 1.

So now the mortar needs a 1 (and only a 1) to Hit the target.

Also either if the Target or Firer is moving: Red RNC draw are treated as misses. If BOTH the target and firer are moving. Red RNC's are misses and an -1 To Hit is applied. (Since a mortar cannot fire while moving, l

In the Example so far:
0-1 --> 0-2 --> 0-1 --> 0 --> Black 1
Acq. -3 Conceal Target Moving


The firer draw the card for To Hit RNC and get a Black 1. A Hit!

So now we complete the rest fo the attack:
The effect number for the 2--that's the base fire strength.

This Effect can modified by the RNC card draw, by this rule:
If the range To Hit is expressed by a range of numbers (0-1, 0-2. etc.) then you add the To Hit RNC to the Effect. In this case we do not because the Final To Range was simply 1. The effect remains at 2.

Next we apply Attacker/Defender TEM's, Were for Defender (we do NOT have to apply Smoke or Attacker Wire or movement, because they already were applied in the To Hit process.)

We finally have the final fire strength. Now we go down each man to see if they are pinned / panicked or killed. Just like a regular attack.

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Francisco Gutierrez
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No, you can't skip it. The chart is literally showing you how the the proper steps between hit chances.

If you are trying to play Up Front, I'll assume you are familiar with shifting columns in war games.

The chart is saying that the likeliest to succeed draw is the "0-6" and the least likely to succeed draw is the "6". So you shift up and down the column to keep the odds correct.

Let's look at the example again,

Alright, lets see what you need to hit. You need a 0 or a one card, right? So you will start in the "0-1" column. But since a -1 card was played (concealment, wire, etc), you no longer need a "0-1". A -1 would shift your chance of success one column down. One shift down from "0-1" is "0". So you need a "0"

Now, if we shift one down again "0" goes to "1". That might be confusing, but you need to think about the card distribution. -1 Modifiers make it harder for you to hit, so you chances to hit need to go down. There are less 1 cards in the deck than 0 cards so although the number is going up, your chances are going down.
 
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Paul C
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Chris Dirk wrote:
Can someone please explain what the frick this means? It pisses me off that there is NO reference to FREQUENCY untill this very part and then states it as if I should know what the hell it means...

"25.6 TO HIT FREQUENCY: A To Hit frequency of "0-1" is reduced by one by treating it as a "0", a To Hit frequency of "0" is reduced by one by treating it as a "1", a To Hit frequency of "1" is reduced by one by treating it as a "2", etc. Similarly, a To Hit frequency of "3" is increased by one by treating it as a "2", a To Hit frequency of "1" is increased by one by treating it as a "0", and a To Hit frequency of "0" is increased by one by treating it as a "0-1", etc."

How the hell can you reduce a number by going UP? I'm getting so sick of these rules! cry


I can understand your confusion. The terminology is poor- it's not a frequency, it's stating the range of random numbers (RNC) that would produce a hit. E.g. a To Hit "Frequency" of 0-3 means that you hit if you draw a random number (RNC) of 0,1,2 or 3. A To Hit "Frequency" of 5 means that you only hit if you draw a 5.
 
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Rich James
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capracaligo wrote:
I can understand your confusion. The terminology is poor- it's not a frequency, it's stating the range of random numbers (RNC) that would produce a hit. E.g. a To Hit "Frequency" of 0-3 means that you hit if you draw a random number (RNC) of 0,1,2 or 3. A To Hit "Frequency" of 5 means that you only hit if you draw a 5.

The range indicates the RNC's that, if drawn, will result in a hit. Knowing the distribution of RNC's in the deck (at least when it is newly shuffled), we know the statistical distribution of each RNC #. Therefore, as the To Hit range increases, the chances of getting a hit go up. In other words, the frequency of getting a hit goes up.

What is often not intuitive to new players is that to increase a To Hit frequency by 1 for, say, "0" means you are now using a frequency range of "0-1". Increase it by 1 again and you are using "0-2". These should be understood as increasing the possible valid cards you can draw as RNCs to get a hit.
 
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Chris Dirk
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joetaco wrote:

If you are trying to play Up Front, I'll assume you are familiar with shifting columns in war games.


No, I'm not. Is this a problem? Would this change how you would explain it to me? I'm not stupid concerning these kinds of concepts but this is throwing me for a loop.
 
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Chris Dirk
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OKAY. Let me try and put it a differant way...

"[EX: PFC Towle is at Relative Range 4 to the moving target group and because he lacks a crewman to load his bazooka [30.2] he must use the bracketed TO HIT numbers to gain a hit. The first RNC drawn is a black 0 resulting in a hit. Note that had it been a red 0, the shot would have missed because the target group is moving. The Fire strength of the hit is 2 (Effect Number [2] + To Hit Number drawn [0] = 2), which, despite modifications remains a 2 (2 {Fire Strength] - 1 [Brush] + 1 [Movement] = 2). The second RNC drawn is a black 6 which kills Wolff (2 + 6 > 8). The third RNC drawn is a red 1 which leaves Schultz unaffected (2 - 1 = 1 < 2).]"

I get this. And I'm (kinda) getting the frequency chart. So how do I determine what number on the chart I start with and what does that number mean to me.
 
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Grant Linneberg
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The number you start with depends on what weapon you're shooting, and at what range. If you read through the long post by Richard Irving above, you'll see he gives an example firing a Russian 50mm mortar.

He made a small reproduction of that card. It shows, for example, that if you were firing at a target at relative range (RR) 2, you would hit on a draw of 0-2. If you hit, then you apply the effects.

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Martin Gallo
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Chris Dirk wrote:
joetaco wrote:

If you are trying to play Up Front, I'll assume you are familiar with shifting columns in war games.


No, I'm not. Is this a problem? Would this change how you would explain it to me? I'm not stupid concerning these kinds of concepts but this is throwing me for a loop.
You are shifting rows instead of columns. The "ease of getting a hit" depends on what row you are drawing an RNC against. Higher (0-6) is easy. Lower (6) is harder. The range and weapon determine the initial probability/ease of success and that initial row is then shifted up (easier) or down (lower). Just keep that list of Frequencies in front of you and shift up or down as needed. Draw the RNC and play.

Try to get out of your own way, go procedural until you get the mechanics down then try and work out the logic behind it? Save the overthinking until you figure out what to do mechanically.

If all else fails, can you explain what you do not understand?
 
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Chris Dirk
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You're right, I think I'm overthinking this and just getting in my own way. I'm going to have to stare at all this for a while and let it bubble. Maybe something will finally click. Like those hidden 3-D pictures from the '90's. You stare at it for a while, step back and after a while, you actually feel your eyes "click" and all of a sudden - DOLPHIN!

STAT CLOSE!
 
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Mark J
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I'm getting the feeling no one really knows what you're having a problem understanding. I thought it was you just didn't like the word frequency and it appears someone clarified that well enough.
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Brian Sielski
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Chris,

Maybe we need a little insight into your level of experience. Is this your "first" war game of the "board variety?" That is, do you own any other standard war games from Avalon Hill, GMT, SPI, etc.?

Axis and Allies does not count.

Doc
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Richard Irving
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Chris Dirk wrote:
You're right, I think I'm overthinking this and just getting in my own way. I'm going to have to stare at all this for a while and let it bubble. Maybe something will finally click. Like those hidden 3-D pictures from the '90's. You stare at it for a while, step back and after a while, you actually feel your eyes "click" and all of a sudden - DOLPHIN!

STAT CLOSE!


Wargames, in general, and Up Front, in particular, are not easy to learn. People learn them by starting with simpler wargames and as they gain experience, rules from one game often appear in very similar form in other games: Hex based movement, combat with CRT's, Dice Roll Modifiers, Column shifts, zones of control, supply rules, etc.

To be honest, if you haven't played really any other wargames, Up Front may not be the game for at this time.
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Chris Dirk
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Dr Brian wrote:
Chris,

Maybe we need a little insight into your level of experience. Is this your "first" war game of the "board variety?" That is, do you own any other standard war games from Avalon Hill, GMT, SPI, etc.?

Axis and Allies does not count.

Doc


I don't. This is my first real wargame. But I refuse to accept defeat! I guess I can't really explain it. I'm with the rules all the way to the 52.6 TO HIT FREQUENCY. but I have to admit this isn't making much sense either...

Quote:
Things that make it harder to hit (such as Concealment cards played by the defender, Smoke (ea. one on either attacker or defender), wire (ea. on the firer) are described as "-1/-2/-3 To Hit", i.e. "Move to range 1/2/3 lower on the list."

Let's the defender plays a Concealment -3 card when the mortar has 0-2 To Hit. That means: 0-2 --> 0-1 --> 0 --> 1.

So now the mortar needs a 1 (and only a 1) to Hit the target.

Also either if the Target or Firer is moving: Red RNC draw are treated as misses. If BOTH the target and firer are moving. Red RNC's are misses and an -1 To Hit is applied. (Since a mortar cannot fire while moving, l

In the Example so far:
0-1 --> 0-2 --> 0-1 --> 0 --> Black 1
Acq. -3 Conceal Target Moving


Like how does a mortar start with a 0-2 to hit with a -3 Concealment played reduce it to a 1? Why doesn't the -3 make it impossible to hit all together? This seems too abstract. I like 1 to 1 ratios like this means that thematically. I also like visual reference. I play a lot of DVG stuff. Show me cards, point stuff out. These rules are abysmal. No visual ref', terminology seems to change, examples are too few and far between OR it's pointing out the one thing I DON"T need pointed out... I don't know what column shifting is. Should I know this first? Not having much of a frame of ref' is there a concept I should be familiar with first?
 
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Grant Linneberg
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Chris Dirk wrote:


Like how does a mortar start with a 0-2 to hit with a -3 Concealment played reduce it to a 1? Why doesn't the -3 make it impossible to hit all together? This seems too abstract. I like 1 to 1 ratios like this means that thematically. I also like visual reference. I play a lot of DVG stuff. Show me cards, point stuff out. These rules are abysmal. No visual ref', terminology seems to change, examples are too few and far between OR it's pointing out the one thing I DON"T need pointed out... I don't know what column shifting is. Should I know this first?


If you look at the frequency chart I posted way up at the top of the thread, you can see the answer...

0-6
0-5
0-4
0-3
0-2
0-1
0
1
2
3
4
5
6


If you start at 0-2 and count down three (-3) you are at 1.

And if you look at the same chart with the total chances to hit written in by Richard, you can see how this makes sense...

0-6 162
0-5 156
0-4 146
0-3 130
0-2 108
0-1 80
0 44
1 36
2 28
3 22
4 16
5 10
6 6


The numbers on the right represent the total number of cards that will hit at that to hit range.

I think what you're missing is that a range of "0-2" means you hit on 0, on 1, and on 2. Whereas a range of "2" means you only hit on a 2 (not a 0 or a 1).

So if the to hit range is 0-2 you have 108/162 cards that will give you a hit. Whereas with that -3 mod that brings to a to hit of 1 means only 36/162 cards will hit, a very significant reduction.



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