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Subject: Capture Question rss

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Rob W
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Scipio (1A) defeated the 1st Punic War Naval Battle. Surviving the battle was 12 fleets and 2 legions. We lost 1 fleet and 1 legion in the naval battle.

On the chit draws (of which we drew 2), the 2nd and final chit was a 1! Was Scipio captured or killed?

We are playing the VG rules. We note that:

VG Rulebook wrote:
1.10.71 CAPTURE: If the last Mortality Chit drawn to check for Commander Death would kill the Commander or Master of Horse, and two or more chits were drawn, the Senator is captured instead of being killed unless the battle was a Roman Victory. The Senator is subject to Ransom. The ransom amount is 10 Talents or 2 Talents per Influence of the captive, whichever is more. If he War is defeated before the captive is ransomed he dies. Ransoms may be paid at any time prior to defeat of the War, or prior to the next Forum Phase in the case of Barbarian Raids. Captives lose all income and have their Personal Treasuries frozen except for purposes of paying ransom. Ransom money can be drawn from the Captive's Personal Treasury and/or his Faction Treasury. A Captive always keeps his original office (provided he is returned before his term expires). Captives always return to Rome when ransomed; they are killed if the War is discarded or returned to the deck. A Captive's influence does not count towards that Faction's total for purposes of victory. Captives are subject to normal Mortality Chit and Foreign Epidemic draws. The Captive may still restrict the play of a Statesmen Card of the same ID#.


Note my bold. It seems as if he were killed, going by a strict reading of the rule.

So the battle WAS a Roman Victory, but it did not completely discard the card. Therefore, I think that Scipio is intended to have been captured. I think the idea is that if the war card is discarded, then the captive was killed instead. I proposed we treat Scipio as captured. Does anyone disagree?
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Paul Schulzetenberg
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I would say that yes, you're right, he's supposed to be killed. Here's what the living rules for the old edition have to say on the subject (emphasis mine):

Living Rules wrote:
10.82 CAPTURE: A Commander/Master of Horse whose Mortality Chit is drawn last (but not the first) out of all the mortality chits drawn for a battle is not killed. Instead, he is captured and subject to ransom. The ransom amount is ten Talents or two Talents per Influence of the captive (whichever is more). If the War is defeated before the captive is ransomed he dies. [...] Captives always return to Rome when ransomed; they are killed if the war is discarded _or_ returned to the deck.


Note there's no exception for a Roman Victory, and that since the leader is taken captive, when the war was defeated, he was killed unceremoniously rather than allowed to return to Rome. Given that the rules in the VG version are supposed to come out of this version, I'd be inclined to just chalk this up to sloppy rewriting and say that the rule is supposed to be the same as the old edition.
 
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Rob W
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Do you mean to say right that he is captured?
 
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David Damerell
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chargetheguns wrote:
I completely disagree with both of you! I read it to mean "the Senator is captured (instead of being killed) unless the battle was a Roman Victory". So neither captured nor killed in the case of a Roman victory.


That makes no sense; the last mortality chit in the event of a victory would then do nothing at all, so the rule could just be to draw one fewer.
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Rob W
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Unitoch wrote:
I would say that yes, you're right, he's supposed to be killed. Here's what the living rules for the old edition have to say on the subject (emphasis mine):

Living Rules wrote:
10.82 CAPTURE: A Commander/Master of Horse whose Mortality Chit is drawn last (but not the first) out of all the mortality chits drawn for a battle is not killed. Instead, he is captured and subject to ransom. The ransom amount is ten Talents or two Talents per Influence of the captive (whichever is more). If the War is defeated before the captive is ransomed he dies. [...] Captives always return to Rome when ransomed; they are killed if the war is discarded _or_ returned to the deck.


Note there's no exception for a Roman Victory, and that since the leader is taken captive, when the war was defeated, he was killed unceremoniously rather than allowed to return to Rome. Given that the rules in the VG version are supposed to come out of this version, I'd be inclined to just chalk this up to sloppy rewriting and say that the rule is supposed to be the same as the old edition.

That is what I was suspecting as I was reading the VG rules.
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Jon Horne
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rwright wrote:
Note my bold. It seems as if he were killed, going by a strict reading of the rule.

So the battle WAS a Roman Victory, but it did not completely discard the card. Therefore, I think that Scipio is intended to have been captured. I think the idea is that if the war card is discarded, then the captive was killed instead. I proposed we treat Scipio as captured. Does anyone disagree?

You can argue intent, but that's a slippery beast. According to the VG rules, Scipio is killed. According the AH rules, he is captured.
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Rob W
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AxleKerrigan wrote:
rwright wrote:
Note my bold. It seems as if he were killed, going by a strict reading of the rule.

So the battle WAS a Roman Victory, but it did not completely discard the card. Therefore, I think that Scipio is intended to have been captured. I think the idea is that if the war card is discarded, then the captive was killed instead. I proposed we treat Scipio as captured. Does anyone disagree?

You can argue intent, but that's a slippery beast. According to the VG rules, Scipio is killed. According the AH rules, he is captured.

I do agree with that too. This is a forum game so we will agree what to do.
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T. Dauphin
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Unitoch wrote:
I would say that yes, you're right, he's supposed to be killed. Here's what the living rules for the old edition have to say on the subject (emphasis mine):

Living Rules wrote:
10.82 CAPTURE: A Commander/Master of Horse whose Mortality Chit is drawn last (but not the first) out of all the mortality chits drawn for a battle is not killed. Instead, he is captured and subject to ransom. The ransom amount is ten Talents or two Talents per Influence of the captive (whichever is more). If the War is defeated before the captive is ransomed he dies. [...] Captives always return to Rome when ransomed; they are killed if the war is discarded _or_ returned to the deck.


Note there's no exception for a Roman Victory, and that since the leader is taken captive, when the war was defeated, he was killed unceremoniously rather than allowed to return to Rome. Given that the rules in the VG version are supposed to come out of this version, I'd be inclined to just chalk this up to sloppy rewriting and say that the rule is supposed to be the same as the old edition.


I'm not sure, given their treatment of Kremlin, that we can safely make that assumption. They may very well have intended that change. There is some logic to it. I think you're justified in playing according to this interpretation, if you want to follow VG's rules.
But equally, I agree that the original, without the stipulation of the 'battle', intends that the leader be captured.

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Paul Schulzetenberg
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I have to admit, I wasn't reading the situation carefully enough, and I missed that this was due to a naval battle, and not the end of a war. That means there's a functional difference between the AH and the VG rules that I didn't see initially.

With that in mind, I have to agree with AxleKerrigan here - the leader is captured under AH rules, and killed under VG rules. If you're playing the VG rules, that means, sadly, that Scipio has met his watery end.
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Rob W
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We decided that he was killed in the naval victory. Thanks all for the comments!
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