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Subject: BGG needs a LGBTQ forum similar to the Women and Gaming forum rss

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Vanessa Lopez
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quozl wrote:
Why not just start a thread and see what happens?


A thread is not a forum. I'm not sure how that would help?
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True Blue Jon
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It shows how many might participate.
 
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mamapapillon wrote:
Lemur wrote:
I think this continues to be the struggle that BGG has.

It's a database (although, one where the data isn't readily available/customizable to users). Then, it became a social media platform (but not really, because there's a HELLUVA lot more moderation and locking threads than *sny* social media site).


It's interesting that you say that. In my experience, BGG is much more lax around moderation than other social media sites I engage in. And I'm all for moderation. Intelligent conversations can be had, with respect.

I see BGG as more than just a database. It's a community. I've loved being a part of this community. And would love to see it grow. But that growth has to be inclusive in nature.



I've never seen a thread on Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter ... *locked*

Yet - look at the Complaints forum here; half the threads are "locked."

We have a Scarlet Letter situation going on in RSP - where banned users are named and hung out in effigy. (even though I don't frequent RSP).

I don't disagree that respect is vital. IMO, someone putting a bunch of thought into a "Trump" GameDay isn't committing a sin that requires his post being moved from the general consciousness into the back alley.

There's a distinctive move towards "sterile" -- certainly more than there was 14+ years ago when I joined. It was (IMO) always respectful; but we COULD have those conversations about women, LGBT, etc. without the powers that be losing their minds .....
 
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Désirée Greverud
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quozl wrote:
Why not just start a thread and see what happens?

I was going to start a poll in General Gaming asking "why shouldn't there be an LGBTQ Gamers forum?" with answers like:
We don't want to encourage the deviants
What issues would they possibly have that we can't derail here?
BGG is already inclusive now shut up
Go talk about it in RSP

I thought better of it and came here instead.
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True Blue Jon
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We have a saying here. "Honey attracts more flies than vinegar."
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Vanessa Lopez
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quozl wrote:
It shows how many might participate.


The issue here isn't about how many people would participate. It's about BGG recognizing that we, the LGBTQIA+ BGG community, should have a dedicated forum.
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True Blue Jon
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mamapapillon wrote:
quozl wrote:
It shows how many might participate.


The issue here isn't about how many people would participate. It's about BGG recognizing that we, the LGBTQIA+ BGG community, should have a dedicated forum.


I think BGG decides that at least partially based on numbers.
 
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Vanessa Lopez
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Lemur wrote:
mamapapillon wrote:
Lemur wrote:
I think this continues to be the struggle that BGG has.

It's a database (although, one where the data isn't readily available/customizable to users). Then, it became a social media platform (but not really, because there's a HELLUVA lot more moderation and locking threads than *sny* social media site).


It's interesting that you say that. In my experience, BGG is much more lax around moderation than other social media sites I engage in. And I'm all for moderation. Intelligent conversations can be had, with respect.

I see BGG as more than just a database. It's a community. I've loved being a part of this community. And would love to see it grow. But that growth has to be inclusive in nature.



I've never seen a thread on Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter ... *locked*

Yet - look at the Complaints forum here; half the threads are "locked."

We have a Scarlet Letter situation going on in RSP - where banned users are named and hung out in effigy. (even though I don't frequent RSP).

I don't disagree that respect is vital. IMO, someone putting a bunch of thought into a "Trump" GameDay isn't committing a sin that requires his post being moved from the general consciousness into the back alley.

There's a distinctive move towards "sterile" -- certainly more than there was 14+ years ago when I joined. It was (IMO) always respectful; but we COULD have those conversations about women, LGBT, etc. without the powers that be losing their minds .....


Twitter, for sure, was never created with moderation in mind, I don't think.

I don't do LinkedIn.

But Facebook? Yes, many groups I participate in, that are fantastic community resources for support and conversation, are absolutely moderated in a very strict way. With behaviour expectations clearly listed on the main page and several moderators working to make sure there is no abuse happening.

It's funny how you see it as making things "sterile". I see it as creating a space where people feel safer, specifically people from marginalized communities. My guess is that not everyone found the conversations here 14 years ago as respectful as you remember them.
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Désirée Greverud
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mamapapillon wrote:
Lemur wrote:
mamapapillon wrote:
Lemur wrote:
I think this continues to be the struggle that BGG has.

It's a database (although, one where the data isn't readily available/customizable to users). Then, it became a social media platform (but not really, because there's a HELLUVA lot more moderation and locking threads than *sny* social media site).


It's interesting that you say that. In my experience, BGG is much more lax around moderation than other social media sites I engage in. And I'm all for moderation. Intelligent conversations can be had, with respect.

I see BGG as more than just a database. It's a community. I've loved being a part of this community. And would love to see it grow. But that growth has to be inclusive in nature.



I've never seen a thread on Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter ... *locked*

Yet - look at the Complaints forum here; half the threads are "locked."

We have a Scarlet Letter situation going on in RSP - where banned users are named and hung out in effigy. (even though I don't frequent RSP).

I don't disagree that respect is vital. IMO, someone putting a bunch of thought into a "Trump" GameDay isn't committing a sin that requires his post being moved from the general consciousness into the back alley.

There's a distinctive move towards "sterile" -- certainly more than there was 14+ years ago when I joined. It was (IMO) always respectful; but we COULD have those conversations about women, LGBT, etc. without the powers that be losing their minds .....


Twitter, for sure, was never created with moderation in mind, I don't think.

I don't do LinkedIn.

But Facebook? Yes, many groups I participate in, that are fantastic community resources for support and conversation, are absolutely moderated in a very strict way. With behaviour expectations clearly listed on the main page and several moderators working to make sure there is no abuse happening.

It's funny how you see it as making things "sterile". I see it as creating a space where people feel safer, specifically people from marginalized communities. My guess is that not everyone found the conversations here 14 years ago as respectful as you remember them.

Only 25 years ago, even discussing transsexual issues wasn't allowed on AOL. Things have obviously changed in the last 2 1/2 decades, but yeah, I doubt 14 years ago there was a lot of respect for LGBTQ issues and memebers or much moderating to remove disruptive, homophobic voices (hell, that isn't being done now. No way it was being done 14 years ago)
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quozl wrote:
We have a saying here. "Honey attracts more flies than vinegar."

True, but honey threads also attract stinging flies. With all due respect, you may not have seen some of them. Pleasant enthusiastic positive posts turn into derailed trainwrecks by people who come in posting angry rants about SJW & PC & "shoving liberalism down my throat" etc.

Edited to change "flies" to "stinging flies", as I realized I inadvertently reversed the sense of the metaphor, doh!
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Vanessa Lopez
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DragonsDream wrote:
Only 25 years ago, even discussing transsexual issues wasn't allowed on AOL. Things have obviously changed in the last 2 1/2 decades, but yeah, I doubt 14 years ago there was a lot of respect for LGBTQ issues and memebers or much moderating to remove disruptive, homophobic voices (hell, that isn't being done now. No way it was being done 14 years ago)


For sure. And listening to the women who have been here for a long time, there are awful stories of misogynistic messages being posted regularly, without any repercussions (except for the women getting banned for complaining about the abuse). Oh, and women were told it was their fault for bringing attention to themselves in the first place. So, you know, not super respectful. Unless you're a straight, white cis-man.
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Désirée Greverud
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russ wrote:
quozl wrote:
We have a saying here. "Honey attracts more flies than vinegar."

True, but honey threads also attract flies. With all due respect, you may not have seen some of them. Pleasant enthusiastic positive posts turn into derailed trainwrecks by people who come in posting angry rants about SJW & PC & "shoving liberalism down my throat" etc.

and a quick review of the deliberately derailed then locked "LGBTQ voices in gaming" thread shows no bans or reprimands to those who actively choice to derail the conversion. So yay. I feel so welcome and supported :-/
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DragonsDream wrote:
a quick review of the deliberately derailed then locked "LGBTQ voices in gaming" thread shows no bans or reprimands to those who actively choice to derail the conversion.


To be fair, moderation is always private regardless of topic, typically taking the form of X days posting bans (X increasing based on number of previous bans). BGG deliberately does not say publicly who has been moderated or how (exception: bans from RSP).

Opinions differ on the benefits of hidden moderation vs public moderation.

On the OP, a guild is admittedly not as discoverable as a regular forum - but as has been pointed out this could work out to be an advantage (not attracting bigots). Further, the ability for the guild owner to moderate threads (delete / pin / lock) without necessarily having to wait for admin action is a strong bonus. A while back there was some discussion of making guilds more prominent on the home page - if/when that happens the guild option would definitely be better than a sub-forum.

Personally I would prefer if all demographics felt safe enough to post in general without needing a safe space, but as with the women and gaming forum there are unfortunately still too many bigoted attitudes around that cause trainwrecks like the ones seen recently.

So perhaps the best option at the moment is to try a guild for those that want it; but if someone creates a relevant thread in general it's totally ok for it to be there too - and there's an opportunity to invite people to the guild and build a community (by PM if you want to avoid publicising it trolls).
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DragonsDream wrote:
russ wrote:
quozl wrote:
We have a saying here. "Honey attracts more flies than vinegar."

True, but honey threads also attract flies. With all due respect, you may not have seen some of them. Pleasant enthusiastic positive posts turn into derailed trainwrecks by people who come in posting angry rants about SJW & PC & "shoving liberalism down my throat" etc.

and a quick review of the deliberately derailed then locked "LGBTQ voices in gaming" thread shows no bans or reprimands to those who actively choice to derail the conversion. So yay. I feel so welcome and supported :-/


Moderation is handled privately - I can assure you that there were plenty of suspensions doled out from that thread, particularly towards the end.

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Octavian wrote:
DragonsDream wrote:
russ wrote:
quozl wrote:
We have a saying here. "Honey attracts more flies than vinegar."

True, but honey threads also attract flies. With all due respect, you may not have seen some of them. Pleasant enthusiastic positive posts turn into derailed trainwrecks by people who come in posting angry rants about SJW & PC & "shoving liberalism down my throat" etc.

and a quick review of the deliberately derailed then locked "LGBTQ voices in gaming" thread shows no bans or reprimands to those who actively choice to derail the conversion. So yay. I feel so welcome and supported :-/


Moderation is handled privately - I can assure you that there were plenty of suspensions doled out from that thread, particularly towards the end.


my apologies then. I was not aware of this policy. I was judging based on previously seeing members having a "banned" tag on posts
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Vanessa Lopez
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Octavian wrote:
DragonsDream wrote:
russ wrote:
quozl wrote:
We have a saying here. "Honey attracts more flies than vinegar."

True, but honey threads also attract flies. With all due respect, you may not have seen some of them. Pleasant enthusiastic positive posts turn into derailed trainwrecks by people who come in posting angry rants about SJW & PC & "shoving liberalism down my throat" etc.

and a quick review of the deliberately derailed then locked "LGBTQ voices in gaming" thread shows no bans or reprimands to those who actively choice to derail the conversion. So yay. I feel so welcome and supported :-/


Moderation is handled privately - I can assure you that there were plenty of suspensions doled out from that thread, particularly towards the end.



One of the more disturbing posts is by a member that doesn't seem to have been suspended. Only judging by their last login today. And a quick look at their profile page shows a pretty disturbing hateful statement.
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mamapapillon wrote:


One of the more disturbing posts is by a member that doesn't seem to have been suspended. Only judging by their last login today. And a quick look at their profile page shows a pretty disturbing hateful statement.


You can be suspended and still log in.(I know first hand...several times )
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DragonsDream wrote:
Octavian wrote:
DragonsDream wrote:
russ wrote:
quozl wrote:
We have a saying here. "Honey attracts more flies than vinegar."

True, but honey threads also attract flies. With all due respect, you may not have seen some of them. Pleasant enthusiastic positive posts turn into derailed trainwrecks by people who come in posting angry rants about SJW & PC & "shoving liberalism down my throat" etc.

and a quick review of the deliberately derailed then locked "LGBTQ voices in gaming" thread shows no bans or reprimands to those who actively choice to derail the conversion. So yay. I feel so welcome and supported :-/


Moderation is handled privately - I can assure you that there were plenty of suspensions doled out from that thread, particularly towards the end.


my apologies then. I was not aware of this policy. I was judging based on previously seeing members having a "banned" tag on posts


Which doesn't happen here, but should. Sure, you see the big red post that says that something in a thread was against the rules, but whatever it was is never labelled, is never deleted, and there's never any evidence that there was a punishment of some sort. All of which are part of proper moderation of a forum - everywhere but BGG.
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MWChapel wrote:
mamapapillon wrote:


One of the more disturbing posts is by a member that doesn't seem to have been suspended. Only judging by their last login today. And a quick look at their profile page shows a pretty disturbing hateful statement.


You can be suspended and still log in.(I know first hand...several times )


Then what exactly is a suspension?
 
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mamapapillon wrote:
MWChapel wrote:
mamapapillon wrote:


One of the more disturbing posts is by a member that doesn't seem to have been suspended. Only judging by their last login today. And a quick look at their profile page shows a pretty disturbing hateful statement.


You can be suspended and still log in.(I know first hand...several times )


Then what exactly is a suspension?


You cannot post.
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Octavian wrote:
Moderation is handled privately - I can assure you that there were plenty of suspensions doled out from that thread, particularly towards the end.
There were also apparently some posts deleted. That thread was originally 23 pages, but now page 23 is empty. (This is probably also a forum bug, that there still is an empty page 23.)

The issue of whether or not moderation should be more public is probably the subject of a different thread than this one.
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JasonJ0 wrote:
Which doesn't happen here, but should. Sure, you see the big red post that says that something in a thread was against the rules, but whatever it was is never labelled, is never deleted, and there's never any evidence that there was a punishment of some sort. All of which are part of proper moderation of a forum - everywhere but BGG.


I would rather not have anything be deleted. There's value in leaving a history of what happened. But there should definitely be more transparency here. The comments/posts that break community rules should be marked and we should know what happened. Secrecy helps no one. And doesn't deter anyone from repeating this awful behaviour in the future.

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mamapapillon wrote:
JasonJ0 wrote:
Which doesn't happen here, but should. Sure, you see the big red post that says that something in a thread was against the rules, but whatever it was is never labelled, is never deleted, and there's never any evidence that there was a punishment of some sort. All of which are part of proper moderation of a forum - everywhere but BGG.


I would rather not have anything be deleted. There's value in leaving a history of what happened. But there should definitely be more transparency here. The comments/posts that break community rules should be marked and we should know what happened. Secrecy helps no one. And doesn't deter anyone from repeating this awful behaviour in the future.


what I am becoming painfully aware of is that BGG has a serious homophobia & misogyny problem and the secret moderation isn't helping to combat it
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dthurston wrote:
Octavian wrote:
Moderation is handled privately - I can assure you that there were plenty of suspensions doled out from that thread, particularly towards the end.
There were also apparently some posts deleted. That thread was originally 23 pages, but now page 23 is empty. (This is probably also a forum bug, that there still is an empty page 23.)

The issue of whether or not moderation should be more public is probably the subject of a different thread than this one.


Users can (and do) delete their own posts (moderation warnings used to invite you to do so). Users can also simply delete their entire accounts, and all their posts go with them.
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DragonsDream wrote:

what I am becoming painfully aware of is that BGG has a serious homophobia & misogyny problem and the secret moderation isn't helping to combat it


It might seem that way from your perspective. In that thread you mentioned getting locked down, how many people do you think were moderated?

BGG has over a million and a half users.

Is your perception that homophobia & misogyny is endemic on BGG? For the most part I have not seen the levels of that. I've seen instances, but a "problem" that isn't handled by moderation? Not really.
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