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MERCS: Recon – Counter Threat» Forums » Rules

Subject: SecFor movement and B&C rss

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Fred Hartig
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Hello!

Newbie here...
I just read the rules and some of the concepts are a little bit difficult to understand.

A. SecFor Movement
I checked the unofficial FAQ for SecFor movement and it is stated that

"All MERCS in rooms, so there are no targets SecFor can attack. No target to move to. SecFor stand still."

Just to make it extra crystal clear: as long as ALL Mercs are in a room/rooms NO SecFor will EVER move (not even if directly adjacent to the room in question)?

BUT SecFor WILL move through EMPTY rooms in order to get closer to a Merc target, right?

B. B&C

When exactly do you use the "Standard" B&C setup/procedure?
Only when agents and/or OpFor are in the room?
What about these objective counters? Hidden or revealed; does it make a difference?
Confused...


Thanks!

Fred
 
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Martin
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A. I don't remember that from the unofficial FAQ, but it sounds a little odd. OpFor will never enter a room with MERCS in it, but not moving at all (ie toward the room) sounds odd to me.

B. A standard B&C occurs when there's either of OpFor, Agents and/or unrevealed objective tokens in the room.
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Jim Johnson
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Hey, Fred!

First and foremost - the rules ARE confusing as hell!! I'm running my first game using the Blood Contagion add-on, and I've already run into a bunch of rule conflicts. This game has some of the worst-written rules that I've ever seen.

(Temper tantrum over - meds kicking in)

That being said, Recon is a one of my favorite games. Despite the poorly written rules, there is a lot of layers to this game. The way I play SecFor is based on what their cards say. SF 1&2 move to range and attack, while SF 3&4 move to the highest armored area to attack. I make the assumption that there are sufficient eyes in the building that the SecFor know exactly where the MERCs are.

So, to answer your question, the SecFor will move the shortest distance to engage with the closest MERC, even entering a room to do it. If the room is filled to capacity, then the SecFor will not enter, but will block the exit(s) to the room. This will cause the MERCs to have to B&C to get out. I never play that the SecFor "just stand still" - they are constantly trying to pick away at and delay the MERCs until more reinforcements arrive.

I've been toying around with an idea for the AI of having the SecFor able to B&C a room with MERCs in it, if they can get three or more SecFor adjacent to the room at the end of the OpFor Phase. I haven't worked the details out yet, as I want to do some more playtesting; but, it would help prevent the problem of the MERCs turtling up in a room.
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Jerry Tresman
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Edit Correction due to brain misfire:- I have asked this SecFor are not Agents or Employees and the rules only restrict Agents and Employees. So not all of OpFor.

No answer from MCG.

From http://megacongames.com/community/#/discussion/1588/mercs-re...


MERCS: Recon Update and Rules Discussion

StarmanStarman Posts: 239
January 17
@MERCKenny

Please can you clear up an issue that keeps cropping up regarding OpFor Movement as opposed to agent or employee movement.

1. If there is space in a room occupied by MERCS and OpFor have the MP to enter the room will they ?
and
2. If there is space in a corridor occupied by MERCS and OpFor have the MP to enter the space from a room will they ?

If they won't then this needs to be made clear on the next up-date.

As MERCS can leave a room and enter a Tile with OpFor (obeying occupancy limits) I see no reason why OpFor cannot do the same. I would certainly think OpFor 3-4 would.

I may have missed it but I cannot see anywhere in the Rules where an OpFor cannot do either of 1. or 2. Maybe 1. generates a B&C

I do however see lots of posts that say OpFor do not enter tiles/rooms with MERCS but only rules for Agents and Employees.

Asked for update

StarmanStarman Posts: 239
March 13
@MERCBrian can you answer the previous post please.EDIT :-

In my above post I really should have put SecFor and not Opfor although there is no rule applying generally to OpFor and nonne specifically for SecFor about not entering a room with Mercs.
 
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Jim Johnson
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Jerry:

OpFor includes employees, as well as SecFor. However, employees will not move into a square with MERCs. They will flee or cower, depending on the total number of OpFor vs MERCs.

SecFor are not bound by that restriction. They will move as per my previous post. However, a SF 3 with a range of 2 will move from a better-armored square out of range in order to be able to attack. So, if there is space in that room or around the corner out of LOS, the SF will move into the square
 
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Jerry Tresman
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dakkadakka1 wrote:
Jerry:

OpFor includes employees, as well as SecFor. However, employees will not move into a square with MERCs. They will flee or cower, depending on the total number of OpFor vs MERCs.

SecFor are not bound by that restriction. They will move as per my previous post. However, a SF 3 with a range of 2 will move from a better-armored square out of range in order to be able to attack. So, if there is space in that room or around the corner out of LOS, the SF will move into the square


Jim I get all that the rules do not put restrictions on op for or sec for only on Agents and Employees , which was my point.

Many gamers have assumed the rules apply to all Opfor, which could be correct but I am not sure it is.

You seem to be agreeing with me that SecFor can enter a room that Mercs are in


OOPS Iprobably should have said Sec For and not OpFor in my post.

I play much as you do although I don't B&C to get out may consider that.
 
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Jim Johnson
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Jerry:

The whole SecFor/OpFor thing IS confusing - I can't tell you how many times I had to look it up!!!

No - I agree completely that there's no reason why SecFor shouldn't be able to enter hallway and room spaces, if not filled to capacity, and if it's necessary in order for the SecFor to acquire the MERC with the highest priority. The whole AI thing has been a little hazy from the get-go; and, people like to handle it differently.

For my part, when I'm playing these co-op games I try to run the AI to make it as tough on the players as possible. If a game is too easy, it will be played once, then sold or shelved. The same can be said for a game that is impossible to win; and a balance is hard to come by.

That's why I'm still a little uncertain about allowing SecFor to B&C a room that's filled to capacity. By the MERCs forting up, they are losing valuable time already. But, the fact that the MERC player can avoid contact by cramming into a room seems counterintuitive. At some point the baddies are going to try and pry you out!!

Another rule I'm having problems with is the burning condition. The rules finally got worked out about the procedure for adjudicating fires; but, every time I have used the flamethrower, the fire quickly spreads to the point where it burns down half the office.

There are three burst symbols on each CD die, which means there is a 37.5% chance of an adjacent area caching fire. There are 4 orthogonally adjacent areas (3 if on the edge); which means there is a darn good chance of getting at least 1 new fire marker each turn - with no way of extinguishing it, by the way! So, I'm thinking of rolling once per area on fire, rather than each orthogonal area.

Sorry about the long post.

Jim
 
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Fred Hartig
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Hmm...

As I understand it now, the OFFICIAL rule is, that SecFor do NOT move at all, when all MERCS are in rooms (regardless of the capacity of the rooms).

Some players houserule it and allow SecFor to move in this case and even enter a room with MERCS in it (if capacity allows it).

Right?

For the first few games I would like to play by the rules before tinkering with them.

Fred
 
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Jim Johnson
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Page 6 of the rulebook clearly states - "The OpFor attacks the highest priority target in range. If they need to move to get in range of a high priority target, they will".

The FAQ compiled by Chinkster lists this reply - "SecFor with no LoS to MERCS move via shortest route to engage with closest MERCS
- All MERCS in rooms, so there are no targets SecFor can attack. No target to move to. SecFor stand still."

The second sentence of the previous paragraph conflicts with the first; and, does not deal with the issue of a room that is not filled to capacity. Fred - if you haven't seen the FAQ, the question that generated this reply assumed that the room was filled to capacity, which seems to be the reason behind the second sentence.

If all MERCS are in a room, then there is no LOS. This means the first sentence applies, and all SecFor move to engage. If the SecFor are already outside the door of a full room, then they can't move to engage.

I'm not trying to tell anyone how to play - I'm just stating what I feel the intent of the rule is, IMHO. This is a bone that has been barked over practically from day one, with no foreseeable resolution in sight. The point is to have an enjoyable evening of gaming with your pals - so play the rule as you see fit.
 
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Fred Hartig
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Thanks!

This sounds reasonable.
Else the MERCS could move from one room to another, prepare and heal all the time, while SecFor stands still.

As long as the game designer does not rule otherwise, I will let SecFor home on the MERCS up to the point of camping outside a MERC room which is filled to capacity.

Thanks again!

Fred

 
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Jerry Tresman
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@Jim
Yes I think Chinkster boiught into the "myth" that SecFor have restrictionss on entering room with MERCS , maybe Brian misplayed i in an early video.

I will have to check MCG forum and the unoff Faq forum as I do remember an answer about SecFor standing still but as we have discussed it makes no sense.

Probably the willingness for SecFor to engage MERCS shouod scale inline with the SwcFor level.

Agreed MERCS canno hide in rooms as it has already been estalished that SecFor have access to all the building surveillance..



@Fred Sounds the right way to go
 
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Jim Johnson
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Jerry:

I think you are exactly right. We already know of some misplayed rules in the videos. That, plus a lot of interpreting as well as outright guessing (yes - I'm guilty, too) has indeed made this a confusing issue.

For me, games of this type need to take a decent stab at simulating a realistic condition, even if it's a fantasy or sci-fi environment. Our special response units (SWAT, SEALS, etc) all have access to high tech communication and surveillance equipment today. It seems reasonable to assume that the SecFor of the near future aren't a bunch of bumbling keystone cops, and have a similar level of awareness and tactical ability.

That's why I'm intrigued with the idea of SecFor being able to do a B&C into a filled room, under certain conditions. I'll playtest it a little and post what I find out.
 
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I wouldn't say it doesn't make sense entirely. There are other games that do similar mechanics for moving AI opponents. Mansions of Madness also has creatures stand still when no one is in 'range'.
 
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Jerry Tresman
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sneth wrote:
I wouldn't say it doesn't make sense entirely. There are other games that do similar mechanics for moving AI opponents. Mansions of Madness also has creatures stand still when no one is in 'range'.


I can see how secfor 1 and maybe 2 would be less motivated to confront "Corporate special Forces Teams" They would know what they were up against fairly quickly, as the backstory and rules fluff has already established there are excellent surveillance and communication systesm within the Buildings.

SecFor 3 are more highly trind and SecFor 4 are basically MERCS equivelants - think SWAT + , there would be grey areas but I can see some scaling.

SecFor 1- Hold and interfere.
SecFor 2 - Support SecFor1 and engage.
SecFor 3 - SecFor2 + Breach
SecFor 4 - Confront toe to Toe BC +

Now we need some rules to go with them. SecFor 1 - Maintain range , SecFor 2 - Guard Assets e.g. go for Objectives and maybe BC, SecFor 4 go for MERCS and Primary Objects + instigate BC
 
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davide pessach
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I wanted to create a supplementary set of rules covering the 'missing' room situations, and I think I will do sooner or later. But I have a feeling that these will not fit in the general mood of the game. Basically the game is all about getting in, do the job, and the hell out super quick. The game is designed to escalate the opfor presence super fast and fortifying into a room doesn't really make any sense. Maybe it is enough for the opfor to just pile up outside a room (camera surveillance justify that) and block the mercs way out... no need to come up with other b&c mechanics
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Achim Bergemann
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So happy to find some guys with the same questions... rules are the worst ever seen, but gameplay is great anyway.
I don't see why there are so many unclear movement rules in a game, which consists of AI Movement...

Good to read that you understand it the same way as I do: Defense values inside a room would make no sense if SecFor couldn't move INTO the room.

Another lack of clarity I just hope you could help me to solve it: the newest update of the english rulebook and its translation into german propose different rules in many points!

One of them is the placement of the collateral damage discs. Do the area gets a CDD if the successes of an attack

1) meets or exceeds the value of the area/disc (englisch version) or
2) only exceeds the value of the area/ disc? (german version)

What happens if the CDD level 3 is placed and there are any miniatures or agents on the disc? Do they

1) die and get removed from the board (english version) or
2) are the replaced to adjacent areas around the CDD level 3? (german version)

What happens if the MERCS solved the final B&C and need to move back to the extraction point, but suddenly a CDD level 3 appears in the hallway? Are the MERCS behind the CDD caught, because the can't move on to the extraction point (they could also be caught BETWEEN to CDD level 3)? What happens, if some MERCS are IN a room and the hallway area just in front of the door of this room gets a CDD level 3? Are the MERCS trapped inside the room? Somehow, that doesn't appear a nice game ending to me because of a missing resolution.

 
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Jerry Tresman
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Rajoulou wrote:
I hope you can help me to solve a lack of clarity concerning the placement of collateral damage discs (CDD). The latest update of the english rulebook and its translation into german language propose different rules in some points!

One of them is the placement of CDD. Do the area gets a CDD if the successes of an attack

1) meets or exceeds the value of the area/disc (englisch version) or
2) ONLY exceeds the value of the area/ disc (german version)?


Answer 1 , The CDD only get placed based on black die results and they only go up one level per attack.

Rajoulou wrote:


What happens if the CDD level 3 is placed and there are any miniatures or agents on the disc? Do they

1) die and get removed from the board (english version) or
2) are the replaced to adjacent areas around the CDD level 3? (german version)


Answer 1


Rajoulou wrote:


What happens if the MERCS solved the final B&C and need to move back to the extraction point, but suddenly a CDD level 3 appears in the hallway?
Are the MERCS behind the CDD caught, because the can't move on to the extraction point (they could also be caught BETWEEN to CDD level 3)?

Yes they are blocked.


Rajoulou wrote:


What happens, if some MERCS are IN a room and the hallway area just in front of the door of this room gets a CDD level 3? Are the MERCS trapped inside the room? Somehow, that doesn't appear a nice game ending to me because of a missing resolution.

Thanks for helping!


Yes they are blocked.


It would seem the German version has a few pre release rules in it and was not updated to the latest rules 4.04.


You need to be careful and keep your exit lines clear if you have weapons that cause Collateral Damage then plan their use , sneak around and ambush enemies so that only 1 CDD is used for a big attack. Move so you are not attacked where a room or exit route could be blocked on some missions you may need to split your team to keep security busy.


Remember only advance one level of CDD per attack.

During Setup use extra doors to ensure that there is not just one escape route.

For jumping gaps you could house rule e.g. roll a red die and die if a hit with 1 save if a MERC on the other side of the hole.

It can be a brutal game especially if you use heavy weapons without thinking.


Note: latest rules still available from:-


http://megacongames.com/downloads/

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