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Star Wars: Rebellion» Forums » Rules

Subject: Death Star plans in combination with Luke and Yoda rss

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Stefan
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Hello fellow boardgamers,

I've played a game of Rebellion today and want to be sure I'm playing the rules correctly.

Here is what happened.

Luke with the attached Yoda ring and one in a million action card ready to be used attacked the system with the Death Star.

After one round of combat i still had fighters in the system and I revealed Death Star Plans.

The Rebel player must roll 3 dice one of those dice must be a critical hit and the Death Star is destroyed.

Now I was wondering if I could first roll 3 dice if it's not a critical hit use Yoda to re roll one of my dice and then instead of reroll use the one in a million action card to make it a critical hit and destroy the Death Star.

I was also wondering:
Let's say if I don't have the Yoda ring attached, am I allowed to first roll two dice and then dont roll the third dice but use one in a million instead?

Thanks for your answer

Stefan
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Craig S.
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One in a Million lets you choose the die results you want instead of rolling them, so you cannot roll them first and then decide to use One in a Million.
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Stefan
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csouth154 wrote:
One in a Million lets you choose the die results you want instead of rolling them, so you cannot roll them first and then decide to use One in a Million.


Yes but if you use Yoda you still have a roll left technically.

Thats why I was also wondering it differently: if you first roll 2 dice you could instead of rolling the third dice use one in a million instead, in theory?
 
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Craig S.
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Stefaninator wrote:
csouth154 wrote:
One in a Million lets you choose the die results you want instead of rolling them, so you cannot roll them first and then decide to use One in a Million.


Yes but if you use Yoda you still have a roll left technically.

Thats why I was also wondering it differently: if you first roll 2 dice you could instead of rolling the third dice use one in a million instead, in theory?


Rerolling can only happen after the roll. One In A Million is played before the roll.
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Witold G
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As for your main question, it's been discussed a few times, but no one presented an official answer from Corey yet. My opinion is that the following sequence of events is allowed:

You roll 3 dice for Death Star Plans. You rolled a [direct hit] symbol? Great, no need to waste any other abilities, Death Star is destroyed! No [direct hit] symbol? You declare use of Yoda ring to reroll one die. Before the actual reroll you declare using One in a Million to place the die showing [direct hit] symbol.


Stefaninator wrote:
I was also wondering:
Let's say if I don't have the Yoda ring attached, am I allowed to first roll two dice and then dont roll the third dice but use one in a million instead?


If you roll x dice, you don't roll them one by one, you roll them all at once. So if you want to use One in a Million instead of rolling 2 of them, you declare that before the roll.

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Craig S.
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Perf wrote:
As for your main question, it's been discussed a few times, but no one presented an official answer from Corey yet. My opinion is that the following sequence of events is allowed:

You roll 3 dice for Death Star Plans. You rolled a [direct hit] symbol? Great, no need to waste any other abilities, Death Star is destroyed! No [direct hit] symbol? You declare use of Yoda ring to reroll one die. Before the actual reroll you declare using One in a Million to place the die showing [direct hit] symbol.


Hmmm...I don't think I agree, for the reason I stated above. OIAM is used instead of rolling those dice. If you are at the point of rerolling, I would think the window for OIAM has already passed.
 
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Witold G
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csouth154 wrote:
Hmmm...I don't think I agree, for the reason I stated above. OIAM is used instead of rolling those dice. If you are at the point of rerolling, I would think the window for OIAM has already passed.


Yeah, I remember the "is reroll a roll - or not?" argument from previous discussions about this situtation. I guess the opinion hinges on an answer to that question.
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Consider an ability: When you are rolling a die or dice: roll one extra die.

If you have that ability and normally rolled two dice and could also reroll one would you rule that you rolled three dice, then rerolled one, rolling a fourth die at the same time?

I seriously doubt anyone would assume the above to be correct in most situations. If you agree with the above being incorrect, then you must accept that a reroll is not a roll.
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Witold G
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Clipper wrote:
Consider an ability: When you are rolling a die or dice: roll one extra die.

If you have that ability and normally rolled two dice and could also reroll one would you rule that you rolled three dice, then rerolled one, rolling a fourth die at the same time?


You are drawing comparisons between one-shot ability and repeatable ability, though.

If the ability you describe is one-shot, I don't see anything strange in applying it to a reroll (you just decide when to use it: on initial roll or on reroll).

If it's repeatable, then it's apples and oranges.
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Craig S.
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You really can't argue with the logic Clipper put forward. A reroll is not a roll. No one would argue that you can use other abilities that can affect your roll while rerolling...
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Witold G
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csouth154 wrote:
You really can't argue with the logic Clipper put forward.


Sure I can, and I just did. Clipper's example, while interesting, used a type of mechanic that is absolutely nowhere to be found in this game: a special ability repeatable in an unlimited way. I can easily see his specific example working perfectly fine in the context of another game, with different mechanics, balance, "feel" etc.


Honest question: are you guys going with this logic because that's how it works in some other games? Ultimately it's down to Corey and of course I have no way of knowing how he will rule, maybe I'm wrong - wouldn't be the first time - but at least some of the reroll rules here are different than what I think is standard in many other games, where you can reroll a given die only once (unlike Rebellion, where it's any number of times).
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Craig S.
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Aside from the convincing argument, it just seems extremely intuitive to me that rolling and rerolling are two different things. You cannot do one before you do the other. "Rerolling" is something that must come after "rolling", and the card says "Instead of rolling..."

If they wanted to have multiple windows for the card, I believe the card would say "Instead of rolling or rerolling..."

And what Clipper put forth wasn't meant to be based on any mechanic in the game. It's a "what if" scenario. If there were an ability in this game that amounted to "when you roll dice, and more dice", would you argue that that ability could be used while rerolling?
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Exactly. I agree no such mechanic exists. However, analysing the situation as if it existed can help us draw a conclusion.

let's assume the ability I specified was released in an expansion. Would you really argue that a reroll is a roll for one-shot abilities while also saying a reroll is not a roll for multi-use abilities?

My point is that our default assumption should be that rerolls are not rolls. It is the stronger argument. Yes, the assumption might be wrong, yes we need developer intent to satisfy it once and for all. In the meantime, we should be able to agree that you should not consider rerolls to be rolls and thus you cannot use One in an Million on a reroll.
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Steve Paltrineri
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I'm having a hard time following this discussion because no one is calling anyone else an idiot. Come on, people, this is a BGG forum, isn't anyone deeply offended by what one person calls a roll and another calls a re-roll? And enough with the smiley faces, you're about to restore my faith in the gamer community!
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Stefan
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Based on the post I'm assuming Corey is the creator of this game.

Can we expect any kind of official response anytime soon on this question?

Perf wrote:
csouth154 wrote:
You really can't argue with the logic Clipper put forward.


Sure I can, and I just did. Clipper's example, while interesting, used a type of mechanic that is absolutely nowhere to be found in this game: a special ability repeatable in an unlimited way. I can easily see his specific example working perfectly fine in the context of another game, with different mechanics, balance, "feel" etc.


Honest question: are you guys going with this logic because that's how it works in some other games? Ultimately it's down to Corey and of course I have no way of knowing how he will rule, maybe I'm wrong - wouldn't be the first time - but at least some of the reroll rules here are different than what I think is standard in many other games, where you can reroll a given die only once (unlike Rebellion, where it's any number of times).
 
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Witold G
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teacherboy wrote:
I'm having a hard time following this discussion because no one is calling anyone else an idiot.

Oh come on, I was about to - now you spoiled the element of surprise!


Clipper wrote:
let's assume the ability I specified was released in an expansion. Would you really argue that a reroll is a roll for one-shot abilities while also saying a reroll is not a roll for multi-use abilities?

My point is that there is no universal answer to this - and maybe describing it as "is reroll a roll?" is not the most fortunate way to do this, more like "is it allowed in this specific situation/game" - it just depends if something is consistent with what the designer envisioned as an overarching philosophy for his set of rules. Multi-use abilities are non-existent in this game, that's why I believe none will be introduced in expansion - and that's why I think it's apples and oranges comparison.

Just my gut feeling.


Stefaninator wrote:
Based on the post I'm assuming Corey is the creator of this game.

Can we expect any kind of official response anytime soon on this question?

I've sent a question to FFG, he usually responds within a couple of weeks.
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Stefan
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Thanks!

Can't wait for his answer.



Stefaninator wrote:
Based on the post I'm assuming Corey is the creator of this game.

Can we expect any kind of official response anytime soon on this question?

I've sent a question to FFG, he usually responds within a couple of weeks.[/q]
 
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James Cheng
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Another Star Wars FFG game, X-wing, recently clarify (after been published for 4 years) that "roll" and "re-roll" are different.
 
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Witold G
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eunoia wrote:
Another Star Wars FFG game, X-wing, recently clarify (after been published for 4 years) that "roll" and "re-roll" are different.

Hopefully we'll get our answer sooner than 4 years since game release.

X-Wing, however, is a game where you can reroll a given die only once, while Rebellion explicitly allows multiple rerolls. Also, in X-Wing a significant portion of the gameplay is built on a possibility to modify a die result again and again and again (but just a single reroll), while Rebellion has, I think, only 6 effects/abilities that affect dice result in the entire game (and that's 6 with stretching things a bit: leader bonus for missions, 2 more dice for Build Alliance, Resourceful Astromech, One in a Million, Yoda ring, Concentrate Fire).

So the general concept of the rules seems to be different in both games, that's why I don't think they're comparable in this aspect (different game designers, too).
 
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Scott Lewis
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eunoia wrote:
Another Star Wars FFG game, X-wing, recently clarify (after been published for 4 years) that "roll" and "re-roll" are different.

While I think it's possible (maybe even likely) that the same ruling will be given here, I don't necessarily think it's enough on its own to say for sure.
 
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David Umstattd
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I don't see how we could possibly argue that a roll and reroll are the same. as those are two different terms. OIAM says it can be used before a roll, not before a reroll. So you couldn't even use it if you rolled your dice and then played Concentrate fire to reroll two dice. Because that would be a re roll, not a roll. You can reroll dice multiple times (if you have abilities) but you can only roll dice once. Specifically at certain points in a combat round or for a mission or Death Star Plans roll.
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Scott Lewis
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David Umstattd wrote:
I don't see how we could possibly argue that a roll and reroll are the same. as those are two different terms.

Yes and no. I've seen cases where things that apply to rolls also apply to rerolls. For example, in many games that apply modifiers to rolls, those modifiers would also apply to rerolls. In some games, things that allow you to reroll dice also allow you to reroll a reroll (triggered by separate things).

In some cases, a "reroll" is simply a subset of a "roll". And in the case of One In A Million, it says "before rolling dice", which you do during a reroll as well.

Ultimately, it will come down to what was intended. I think in this case, the answer will probably be "no, you can't do that", but I couldn't say with certainty until the ruling actually comes.
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David Umstattd
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When analyzing the rules of a game you are to completely forget all other rules from other board games. To infer those rules onto another board game is really bizarre and I don't understand how somebody could do that.


Just because some other board game treats rolls and rerolls a certain way doesn't mean literally anything in regards to Rebellion.
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Jorgen Peddersen
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The examples given weren't modifying the reroll, they were modifying the result on the die (modifiers) or the dice themselves (rerolling a die that was already rerolled).

The games that stop you rerolling dice that were already rerolled will almost always have a rule that explicitly states that you can't reroll them again. That's because you would usually assume that rerolling a die doesn't care about whether the die was most recently rerolled or not.

The rule in question here is simply whether we should treat rerolls as rolls by default. My argument above shows it's pretty clear you should not consider rerolling to be a different type of dice roll. This is not due to rules from other games, it simply relies on that.

 
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Scott Lewis
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David Umstattd wrote:
When analyzing the rules of a game you are to completely forget all other rules from other board games. To infer those rules onto another board game is really bizarre and I don't understand how somebody could do that.


Just because some other board game treats rolls and rerolls a certain way doesn't mean literally anything in regards to Rebellion.

True, and I never said that simply because the rules were found elsewhere that it proved it applies here. I was simply pointing out that there is no universal way of treating rolls vs rerolls - it can vary by game, and Rebellion doesn't define the terms explicitly either way in relationship to how they interact with cards.
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