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Subject: Will this poor archer move into the trap? rss

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Markus Bekken
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Will this archer use his single movememt point to walk into the trap? There is a theoretical route through the other enemies(green arrow), but this path cannot be used at the moment of moving - the archer only has one movement point.

Is the trap 'the only option' rules wise, making the archer move into the trap(blue arrow)?
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d w
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No, it will not move (as you say, there is another path through the archers, so it'll wait and try to take that path later)
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Markus Bekken
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icelock wrote:
No, it will not move (as you say, there is another path through the archers, so it'll wait and try to take that path later)


Thanks, thats how we played it in the end too.
 
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John B
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pg 31 seems to indicate that the archer will move into the trap. unless there is some more subtle point here i'm not grok'g?
 
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Paolino Paperino
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Are you sure about that? The FAQ seems to say that the archer will move on the trap indeed

If a monster can't get within range to attack with its movement, will it still move closer?
Absolutely, monsters will always use the minimum movement required to get as close as possible to a hex where they can attack their focus, attempting to get into a position where they can attack with maximum efficiency if possible (e.g. avoiding disadvantage (first priority) or maximizing attacks on other targets (second priority)). Closeness is measured by the minimum total number of hexes the monster needs to physically move to reach the desired hex.
 
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Pete Thane
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Looking at the section about Focus on the FAQ (page 1 Monsters Turn) it looks to me that as the only path is through the trap then that is the way it will go.
 
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Jo Bartok
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Given unlimited movement points, it is not.
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Matthew Kameron
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My understanding is, since there exists a route to where he wants to go without going through the trap, the trap therefore counts as impassable terrain.

Therefore, he does not move through the trap, since it is a wall to him.
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Mr G
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As I understand it, the focus is the character. The archer must move closer to a point from which it could attack. The only route is through the trap. So it steps onto the trap.
 
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Frank Pelkofer
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fentum wrote:
As I understand it, the focus is the character. The archer must move closer to a point from which it could attack. The only route is through the trap. So it steps onto the trap.


It's not the only route. Monsters can move through monsters. Monsters only step on a trap if there is no other route with infinite movement.
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Alex Florin
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It does not move. You evaluate paths as if the monster had infinite movement.

https://boardgamegeek.com/article/25305660#25305660
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Sam S
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It's a good question, but based on the fact that Isaac said even if the path is 10 steps long he will go around the trap, and for most characters this would be several turns of movement, that the archer would not move into the trap in this case.
 
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Pete Thane
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TheProdigal wrote:
It's a good question, but based on the fact that Isaac said even if the path is 10 steps long he will go around the trap, and for most characters this would be several turns of movement, that the archer would not move into the trap in this case.


Apart from he also said

Quote:
If a monster can't get within range to attack with its movement, will it still move closer?
Absolutely, monsters will always use the minimum movement required to get as close as possible to a hex where they can attack their focus, attempting to get into a position where they can attack with maximum efficiency if possible


and

Quote:
Side note on negative hexes (traps or hazardous terrain): negative hexes are considered obstacles when determining this path unless there is no path except through the negative hexes. .


There is no currently open valid path to the focus (no matter how long) other than through the trap as it has not enough movement to go through the hexes of the other enemies which would suggest to me it will move onto the trap.

 
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Alex Florin
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FAQ:
Next, find the minimum distance it needs to move to get within range (and line-of-sight) to attack an enemy. It doesn't matter if the monster can't get within range with the movement it has, as long as there is a path to eventually get within range, it will still consider this path the optimal path. The enemy/enemies that are within range (and line-of-sight) at the end of this shortest path are considered the "closest."
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Pete Thane
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aflorin wrote:
FAQ:
Next, find the minimum distance it needs to move to get within range (and line-of-sight) to attack an enemy. It doesn't matter if the monster can't get within range with the movement it has, as long as there is a path to eventually get within range, it will still consider this path the optimal path. The enemy/enemies that are within range (and line-of-sight) at the end of this shortest path are considered the "closest."


I know but the other FAQ entry says the monster will always move closer so there is a bit of a contradiction in this instance.
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Phil Pettifer
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belborough wrote:
aflorin wrote:
FAQ:
Next, find the minimum distance it needs to move to get within range (and line-of-sight) to attack an enemy. It doesn't matter if the monster can't get within range with the movement it has, as long as there is a path to eventually get within range, it will still consider this path the optimal path. The enemy/enemies that are within range (and line-of-sight) at the end of this shortest path are considered the "closest."


I know but the other FAQ entry says the monster will always move closer so there is a bit of a contradiction in this instance.

I would say that's an answer to a more general question though. Sure, he could have added various caveats to the answer but doing so would not help in the FAQ overall IMO.
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belborough wrote:
aflorin wrote:
FAQ:
Next, find the minimum distance it needs to move to get within range (and line-of-sight) to attack an enemy. It doesn't matter if the monster can't get within range with the movement it has, as long as there is a path to eventually get within range, it will still consider this path the optimal path. The enemy/enemies that are within range (and line-of-sight) at the end of this shortest path are considered the "closest."


I know but the other FAQ entry says the monster will always move closer so there is a bit of a contradiction in this instance.

Look at the context of what Isaac was replying to. I am pretty sure he was stressing the case where an enemy has, say, melee attack and is 5 hexes away. It will move to get closer but that is following normal pathing rules. I don't think a monster moves if it has a normal path without a trap in theory, but is as close as it can get.
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Troy Laurin
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This is probably the simplest part of the rule about monster focusing and moving, because there are never ever any exceptions.

If there is a path of any length that a monster can take to reach a hex from which they can attack an enemy (player), then traps are considered obstacles for that monster for the entire turn.

If there are no paths to reach a hex from which the monster can attack except through trap or hazardous terrain hexes, then the monster will move through as few negative hexes as possible in its movement for this round (even if that places the monster along a path where it would eventually cross more negative hexes).

Consider the following:

If the monster M had a move of 2 this round, it would take the path to the left to hex 'a' since that only crosses one trap, even though the full path to the right would cross fewer traps total.

tl;dr:
1. Monsters will only ever cross traps (or hazardous terrain) if that is the only path at any distance to reach a hex from which they can attack.
2. Monsters never plan for future rounds or even their companions' turns, they only ever optimise their current turn.
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nicolas debord
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we only need to know if the closest path is valide even if he can't move at all because of allies on the way.

 
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Arthur Janicek
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Now consider this. The monster "M" is in space "a". The monster has move 2 attack x. Which way will he go? Will the monster take the shortest path towards the character going through two traps or will it try to go around the wall because that way only forces it to traverse one trap. Keep in mind that they don't look to future moves to determine their best path and they always try to take the path with least dangers for that turn.

Thoughts?
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Daniel Berg
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I would assume that, since it would actually be able to attack the player character, it would move directly south. Now, if the character stood one space further to the south, I could see an argument for the monster going back and taking the long way again (assuming the trap to the north of it is still there in this situation).
 
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Troy Laurin
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I see what you did there. Either the monster decides how many traps it is willing to step on along the entire path, which would cause the monster to right above, or through two traps and attack in the revised version... Or I was right the first time, and the monster will move away from the player n the revised scenario... And then back the next turn, if they get another move 2.

I think I stand by my statement above since that is what I've managed to internalised from all of the discussions so far, and the only note on this in the FAQ is: "Basically, monsters will move through as few negative hexes as possible.", and previous comments that monsters don't plan ahead.
 
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Kerstin
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I think those two things are where the disconnect in my brain sometimes comes in for me: Monsters in general don't plan at all for future turns, but then with movement they do consider the best route even if it means they only make it there in future turns.

I guess the best way for me to think about it has been: In case of doubt asume the monster has unlimited movement available this turn, then take that path but only use the actual monsters movement.
But as in the example above in rare cases I'm still not 100% sure and just go with what seems most correct.
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Troy Laurin
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"Go with what seems most correct"

There's definitely value here. This kind of situation is likely to be rare, and you aren't going to break the game by moving the monster the wrong way.
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Arthur Janicek
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Safe to say that in situations like this, there's some ambiguity as to the direction of the rules. There's a rule for that! Players decide. I like that.
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