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Subject: Vibrant Grotto impossible with certain parties? (Scenario 7 spoilers) rss

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Byron Campbell
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I just finished setting up Scenario 7, Vibrant Grotto, and then I read the scenario text and realized it will be impossible for my party to complete. Now I am sort of annoyed I took the time to set it up.

*SPOILERS*

The goal is to loot all treasure tiles, and there are 5 on the map. However, the special scenario rules say that these tiles can only be looted with a loot action. I have a 2-character party consisting of a Mindweaver and a Tinkerer, and between them, they have only 2 loot cards, both of which are lost (rather than discarded) when used. It seems like this scenario is literally impossible for my party to complete. It also seems like this is weirdly balanced for different player counts. Am I missing something?

Edit: I did miss one loot card from the Mindthief's deck, which makes this still hard but less impossible.
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Alvin Chen
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The Mindthief does have a reusable Loot level 1 card, Into the Night, as does the Spellweaver, Ride the Wind, so it's at least conceivable that one character can visit all of the other chests, while the Tinkerer clears the way and cheers.
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Alex Florin
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There was a post (can't find it) that in some scenarios you can use the bottom of cards as Loot 2 1 so you can complete them. I don't know if it was just for parties that didn't have any loot cards at all or if it covers cases where you don't have enough loot cards.
 
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Troy Laurin
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aflorin wrote:
There was a post (can't find it) that in some scenarios you can use the bottom of cards as Loot 2 so you can complete them. I don't know if it was just for parties that didn't have any loot cards at all or if it covers cases where you don't have enough loot cards.

To wit:
Scenario 52:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Special rule - For this specific scenario, you can use the bottom action of any card to loot a treasure tile within range 1.

It's not character specific, but I have no idea if the omission of this rule from Scenario 7 is intentional or not
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Cameron Chien
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I would imagine the same thing would apply here. My daughter and I managed to do Scenario 52 without this rule, but at one point she had to do a short rest, and we had a 25% chance of losing her only Loot card.

If I were you, I would simply adopt this rule for now so that you can keep playing and enjoying the game
 
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Matt
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I was going to ask about this exact same thing today. My friend and I are playing Brute and Tinkerer. He has removed his only Loot card, and my only Loot card is Lost when used. This scenario was literally unwinnable by us. We wondered if this was intentional or not. I'm interested in hearing as well.
 
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Daniel Berg
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mjortman wrote:
He has removed his only Loot card

You are able to chose your hand from all of your active cards at the start of each scenario, so he should be able to include it in his deck.
The only way this scenario would be impossible was if your party only consisted of characters with no access to repeatable loot abilities.
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Kerstin
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mjortman wrote:
He has removed his only Loot card


Just in case you didn't know: you can always switch cards back in from your cardpool for specific scenarios once you know what the goal is.

I played this with 3 characters and also had a tough time with not many looting options available and even though I eventually made it, I feel it probably should have the same errata as 52.
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Matt
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That's a good point from both of you, that he could change it out. Looks like his was repeatable too. Thanks for the reminder!
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Eric Bridge
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Yeah I'd like Isaac to rule on this if he can. Otherwise we are going to ignore that rule and additionally loot by landing on the spaces. It's dumb to have it only available by something so rare in the decks, and WHAT makes these chests so different than the others we've been looting in the game up until now anyway?
 
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Daniel Berg
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Exo Desta wrote:
ebridge wrote:
and WHAT makes these chests so different than the others we've been looting in the game up until now anyway?

The locks are harder to pick.

They're not chests, they're plants! You can't just rip those out of the ground willy-nilly, you have to be careful not to damage the roots. Or, you know, you just point your magic loot-stick at them, I guess.
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Mathue Faulkner
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Zeede wrote:
I would imagine the same thing would apply here. My daughter and I managed to do Scenario 52 without this rule, but at one point she had to do a short rest, and we had a 25% chance of losing her only Loot card.

If I were you, I would simply adopt this rule for now so that you can keep playing and enjoying the game

Note that when short resting, you can take a damage to lose a different random card if you don't want to lose the first randomly chosen card.
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Isaac Childres
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That ruling is only for scenario 52. There are no errata for scenario 7.
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Eric Bridge
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Cephalofair wrote:
That ruling is only for scenario 52. There are no errata for scenario 7.

Isaac, it was my understanding that any scenario was supposed to be beatable with any combination of classes (though some certainly easier than others). But not every class has a reusable "loot" card. If this isn't an errata issue, then shouldn't the scenario itself come with a warning that some parties will not be able to complete the scenario?



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Kerstin
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ebridge wrote:
Cephalofair wrote:
That ruling is only for scenario 52. There are no errata for scenario 7.

Isaac, it was my understanding that any scenario was supposed to be beatable with any combination of classes (though some certainly easier than others). But not every class has a reusable "loot" card. If this isn't an errata issue, then shouldn't the scenario itself come with a warning that some parties will not be able to complete the scenario?


I think so far I've come only across one class that has only a non-reusable loot card, so I guess as long as you play with at least 2 character, the scenario will at least in theory be beatable (unless there is a second class that I have not encountered yet).
I think it's crazy hard though in some combinations.

Which made me just wonder though: can you push/pull chests? So could you bring them all closer to each other to loot them at the same time?
(Not sure that's viable at all but just started wondering if pulling a chest towards you is in general possible? I guess as it's usally part of an attack you can't do it for objects?)
 
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Aaron Senser
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This doesn't make sense. There is at least one class with no loot card and at least one class with only a single one-time loot card. If you have a two character party with those characters, the level is impossible.
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K G
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Doomburrito wrote:
This doesn't make sense. There is at least one class with no loot card and at least one class with only a single one-time loot card. If you have a two character party with those characters, the level is impossible.


Yup, we just unlocked a class with no loot cards. Our first thought was "glad we cleared scenario 7."
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As far as I can tell, the answer to this is simply "temporarily add a level 1 Scoundrel to your party to do Scenario 7". After that you can just ditch the character.

Has it been said that all scenarios are supposed to be viable for all characters?
 
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Eric Bridge
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GAFBlizzard wrote:
As far as I can tell, the answer to this is simply "temporarily add a level 1 Scoundrel to your party to do Scenario 7". After that you can just ditch the character.

Has it been said that all scenarios are supposed to be viable for all characters?

I think it has been, an maybe someone will link to it. Your temporary solution does work, but how will someone just trying it for the first time even know to do that? Right now a 2 player party can just start to run the scenario and then "Surprise", you can't even defeat this scenario.

Don't get me wrong, I love this game, and have praised it to the hilt, thus far, but THIS would put a very bad taste in my mouth about the rest of the game.

I feel the scenario should come with some sort of warning at the beginning.
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Troy Laurin
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ebridge wrote:
I feel the scenario should come with some sort of warning at the beginning.

You mean, other than the scenario goal to loot 5 treasure tiles, next to the special scenario rule that says that these tiles can only be looted with a loot action?

Surely bringing along someone who is good at looting is fairly obvious?
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Cameron Chien
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ebridge wrote:

Don't get me wrong, I love this game, and have praised it to the hilt, thus far, but THIS would put a very bad taste in my mouth about the rest of the game.

I feel the scenario should come with some sort of warning at the beginning.

It's in the special rules for the scenario.

And if this one scenario is going to "put a very bad taste" for a game with over ninety scenarios, then you should just sell the game to someone else.
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Eric Bridge
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Zeede wrote:
ebridge wrote:

Don't get me wrong, I love this game, and have praised it to the hilt, thus far, but THIS would put a very bad taste in my mouth about the rest of the game.

I feel the scenario should come with some sort of warning at the beginning.

It's in the special rules for the scenario.

And if this one scenario is going to "put a very bad taste" for a game with over ninety scenarios, then you should just sell the game to someone else.

In my case I'm glad I skipped over this one (unintentionally). I have no desire to ever attempt it now.

I'm just imagining someone who just got the game. They're using Tinkerer and Brute, for example. They've played 4 or 5 scenarios just fine and then they come to this one. Now they basically need to decide to risk if with only one reusable loot card, or to skip it completely, or to make a brand new character like you suggested.

Personally I don't think its a good thing to have such limiting scenarios in the game, but I respect others' having different opinions (unlike some people).
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K G
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ebridge wrote:
Zeede wrote:
ebridge wrote:

Don't get me wrong, I love this game, and have praised it to the hilt, thus far, but THIS would put a very bad taste in my mouth about the rest of the game.

I feel the scenario should come with some sort of warning at the beginning.

It's in the special rules for the scenario.

And if this one scenario is going to "put a very bad taste" for a game with over ninety scenarios, then you should just sell the game to someone else.

In my case I'm glad I skipped over this one (unintentionally). I have no desire to ever attempt it now.

I'm just imagining someone who just got the game. They're using Tinkerer and Brute, for example. They've played 4 or 5 scenarios just fine and then they come to this one. Now they basically need to decide to risk if with only one reusable loot card, or to skip it completely, or to make a brand new character like you suggested.

Personally I don't think its a good thing to have such limiting scenarios in the game, but I respect others' having different opinions (unlike some people).


While I agree that this scenario could present a very big problem for specific two-player compositions, when our two-player party encountered this scenario, we really enjoyed it. For us, it was the first time we didn't need to kill anything. In fact, when it first dawned on us to split and sprint to the objectives rather than actively engage enemies, it was such a paradigm shift that suddenly abilities we had never considered using gained so much value, and abilities we always used were shelved.

I think I ended up looting 4/5 of the chests while my partner only looted 1, so it's completely doable with only one reusable loot card.
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Felix Scholz
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I guess I'm a bit late to this discussion (A certain board game just keeps gobbling up all me free time ), but would still like to weigh in with my experience.

So At the time this scenario came along Our two player party consisting of a tinkerer and a Cragheart, was the only one present. This is porbably one of the (if not the) worst party for this scenario. We only had one reusable loot action, which is also a bottom action. So no loot and move in the same round. We decided not to split up in the beginning, since the Cragheart had to reach 4 of the 5 chests anyway. We basically ignored enemies and just moved as far as possible each round. In the end we failed the scenario because the Cragheart was one hex to far away from the last chest to loot it when he ran out of cards.

So i do believe it can be done (Boots of Striding did certainly help). I get that the scenario tries to give you a very different goal from most of the others and I guess for bigger groups it can be interesting to split up into two 2-char teams. But in this constellation it was not really an option. So it was not a pleasent experience for us. This only got worse when we didn't have much to show for our effort. We killed maybe one or two enemies, so almost no gold gain to speak of. Experience gained was also really low because we really had to optimize for movement and couldn't afford to use "loose" abilities for big effects and EP.

We decided to try a different scenario first and mayby come back later when we have more loot cards available (didn't happen yet). It seems however like the scenario in question is not necessary to progress the story since there is an alternative way to achieve your goal. And this is really what made this scenario okay for me. If that had not been the case we might have tried a lower difficulty (but I doubt that would have changed anything) and than house-ruled away the specific rule about not auto-looting the chests. Even thoguh have been really reluctant to change anything yet.

TL;DR: I really appreciate the scenario for what it tries to do. But it sadly doesnt work for all party compositions. Since it is in no way a mandatory scenario, I'm okay with it however.
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David desJardins
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ebridge wrote:
I'm just imagining someone who just got the game. They're using Tinkerer and Brute, for example. They've played 4 or 5 scenarios just fine and then they come to this one. Now they basically need to decide to risk if with only one reusable loot card, or to skip it completely, or to make a brand new character like you suggested.


Where's the "risk"? If you try and fail, you don't lose anything.
 
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