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Santorini: Golden Fleece» Forums » Rules

Subject: Few Golden Fleece questions rss

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Mech Gamer

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Hi, just bought the golden fleece expansion, the rules are pretty light on the ground! Few questions that came up:

I take it there is no way to move the Golden Fleece? Can one of your builders move onto the GF? Can you build under the golden fleece? I'm guessing the answer to all these is no.

The Atalanta power - when you can move infinitely, I assume you can't climb? Or is it move infinitely including climbing?

That's it I think for now! Thanks for any clarifications!
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TPoG
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ISBN: 1-85723-146-5
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Hmm...
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No, you can not build under or move the Golden Fleece.

Atlanta can climb too. Thus, never allow an open path to the third level or she will run for the win. In that sense she is at least as powerfull as Pan.
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Mech Gamer

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Cool, thanks.

We played a few more games... and had Graeae, the Grey Hags, come up. Ummm... is this defendable? Opponent started in three corners, and could build with any, even the one he didn't move? How could I defend with 2?

Not sure if we got the rules right on her. The rules for the Gods is very scant!
 
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Michael Van Biesbrouck
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mech_gamer wrote:
We played a few more games... and had Graeae, the Grey Hags, come up. Ummm... is this defendable? Opponent started in three corners, and could build with any, even the one he didn't move? How could I defend with 2?


Just having three workers is a bit weak, thus there is always something extra to compensate. Even if Graea splits up her workers, she can only build with one. The areas where you've got your workers will be the most exciting and get built up by two workers. If you leave her in a state where she doesn't need to respond to you with both a move and a build, then maybe a lonely worker can make progress towards victory but this needs to happen many times. What you can't do is leave one of her workers alone in an area that is built up.

It would be better to place Graea's workers one space diagonally in from the corners so that she has more board coverage.
 
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Paul Saxberg
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Confirmed: Atalanta *can* go up multiple levels as long as each *space* she's moving only goes up one level.

For simplicity's sake, it's best to treat the Golden Fleece as a dome that grants god powers. We will probably have wording to this effect in future editions of the rules.

The Graeae are very versatile, but I have never thought of them as being one of the more powerful gods... perhaps your group has hit on an innovative strategy for them?
 
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Mech Gamer

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From these two replies, I get the feeling we just play weirdly - with our builders quite separate from one another. Next time I'm going to try and keep them together a bit more to help each other out...
 
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Michael Van Biesbrouck
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Usually one of these things will happen when you've got two workers:

1. Your workers are together to help each other and block interference.
2. Your workers are split up to block each of your opponent's workers.
3. One worker is blocking your opponent's workers and the other is on its own, hoping to do something useful.

With Graea's three workers you can be in two of those situations simultaneously. Also, each of them works a bit better:

1. If two workers can block access to a spot, you can build without moving.
2. You can try to work both simultaneously.
3. You only need half a turn free to make progress.

It sounds like lots of benefits, but it is still the same number of actions. Other powers give extra builds, moves or ways to block people -- it can be hard to keep up.

If both players take their own corners, then the game becomes a simple math exercise.
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Michael Van Biesbrouck
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Out of curiousity, I checked Graea's strength. It turns out that they are quite good against most control powers, which makes sense given their flexibility. Crushing the control powers gives them a good win rate across the powers I could test with, but the Graea seem to be reasonably balanced against non-control powers and powers being considered for the future.
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Mech Gamer

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Might be beyond the scope of this thread, but out of curiosity how to you go about testing?
 
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Michael Van Biesbrouck
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Stephen Tavener's Ai Ai is a pretty good Santorini player for most powers and I implement powers for it (plus the odd heuristic when a power I'm looking at needs more careful handling by the AI). I normally run a power against all others six times (three times as first player), looking at the win percentage and distribution of results. In the early game there is some randomness so the games don't play out the same way. This is a great way to find out what happens with you give a power a fourth worker or change 'must' to 'may' in a new power.

http://mrraow.com/index.php/aiai-home/
 
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Wow that's extremely cool. Are you a dev for Roxley? Is there generally a first player advantage? I promise these are my last questions
 
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Michael Van Biesbrouck
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First player advantage doesn't seem to exist overall when playing with powers, but for some pairing you need to be careful about who goes first.

You can see my name a few times in the credits for Santorini and I should be doing more for them going forward.
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