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Subject: No Fighter defense against Bombers? rss

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Reinhard S.
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I aquired an A&A 2nd only recently. Therefore some questions others had probably > 20 Years ago...

In the Text describing strategic Bombing, the following sequence is desribed:

Name the Industrial Complex the Bombers will attack, defend with AA-Gun (1 die/attacking bomber, a "1" beeing a hit), roll 1 Die / Surviving bomber to reduce ther enemy's Production...

No fighter defense?
No offensive escort fighters?

Was there any optopnal rule concerning that Point?
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Michael Korson
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The rules as you've stated them are correct. Basically, the only defense against an industrial bombing raid is via the AA Gun roll at the beginning of the raid.

I believe some of the later, revised editions have rules that would allow for the defending player to scramble fighters to intercept and for the attacking player to bring along a fighter escort to counter. There are undoubtedly rules variants that would allow you to do this for this edition of the game as well. Trying checking the 'Variants' section on the game's page.
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Bill Eldard
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maklen9 wrote:
The rules as you've stated them are correct. Basically, the only defense against an industrial bombing raid is via the AA Gun roll at the beginning of the raid.

I believe some of the later, revised editions have rules that would allow for the defending player to scramble fighters to intercept and for the attacking player to bring along a fighter escort to counter. There are undoubtedly rules variants that would allow you to do this for this edition of the game as well. Trying checking the 'Variants' section on the game's page.


Correct.

Axis & Allies has evolved over the years, undoubtedly influenced by feedback for fans. The original units were rather abstract representations of combat qualities, including the anti-aircraft guns representing all the defenses against strategic bombers. But as later editions emerged, rules were introduced for fighter defense against bombers, which of course led to fighter escorts for bombers.

IMHO, all of this was chrome, just as later additions of mechanized infantry (already represented by armor), artillery (already incorporated in the infantry and armor units), and the tactical bombers (already incorporated in fighters).

There have been some genuine improvements at the same time, however, such as better strategic bombing rules, better survivability of battleships, major/minor industrial complexes and better rules, etc.
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Reinhard S.
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Eldard wrote:


Correct.

Axis & Allies has evolved over the years, undoubtedly influenced by feedback for fans. The original units were rather abstract representations of combat qualities, including the anti-aircraft guns representing all the defenses against strategic bombers. But as later editions emerged, rules were introduced for fighter defense against bombers, which of course led to fighter escorts for bombers.

...


Yes, and the rather abstract reprensations make some sense in a game of that scale. Still the Major elements are present (INF, Armor, Fighters, Bombers...) which is great - ant that with good looking miniatures is superb.

Concering Bomber escorts or defensive fighters I thought, that if there are NAVAL Battles and LAND Battles, tha there could be pure AIR Battles too - in which fightes would Play a Major role of course...


Eldard wrote:


...

IMHO, all of this was chrome, just as later additions of mechanized infantry (already represented by armor), artillery (already incorporated in the infantry and armor units), and the tactical bombers (already incorporated in fighters).


I fully agree. Much of this "Chrome" is not really necessary. For example the Destroyers could be imagined as being represented by the "1" defense value the old Transports had...


Eldard wrote:


...

There have been some genuine improvements at the same time, however, such as better strategic bombing rules, better survivability of battleships, major/minor industrial complexes and better rules, etc.


Would be nice to know, where such an "Good Optional Rules for 2nd Ed A&A Compendium" could be found
Any Idea?
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Midnight Reaper
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Reinhard Sabel wrote:
...
Would be nice to know, where such an "Good Optional Rules for 2nd Ed A&A Compendium" could be found
Any Idea?

There have been so many different takes on optional rules for Axis and Allies that I doubt there's one compendium for them all. That said, all of the ingredients for making your own rules are already there - which is part of why there have been so many takes over the years.

My suggestion to you is to figure out what you want, and then look for that online, both on BGG and the wider web. Two online sources for you:

The rules for all of the currently in print Axis & Allies games are available through Avalon Hill's Rules webpage: avalonhill.wizards.com/rules. If you look at the rules for Axis & Allies Europe 1940 2nd Edition, you will find the official Axis & Allies rules for fighter interception of strategic bombers (which is supposed to only apply to Europe 1940, Pacific 1940, or Global (the combined Europe and Pacific) 1940 but could be added to any Axis & Allies game).

A large community of Axis & Allies aficionados can be found at: http://www.axisandallies.org/

And my two favorite optional units for Axis & Allies: Paratroopers and Cargo Planes. Paratroopers are obvious, Cargo Planes carry the Paratroopers into battle.

Midnight_Reaper's House Rules wrote:

Unit Name IPC ATK DEF MOVE Notes
Paratrooper 4 1* 2 1 Noted by Country Marker disc beneath Infantry unit. A Paratrooper unit's attack is increased to 2 when doing an Airborne Assault.

Cargo Plane 8 0 0 6 Noted by Country Marker disc beneath Fighter or Bomber unit. May carry one Infantry or Paratrooper unit. May be used to help a Paratrooper unit perform an Airborne Assault.

Airborne Assault
When a Paratrooper unit is carried into battle by a Cargo Plane they can conduct an Airborne Assault. These attacks are subject to Anti-Aircraft Gun fire, as per normal rules. If the Cargo Plane is successful at arriving over the drop zone, (i.e. is not shot down by anti-aircraft fire) then the Paratrooper adds a +1 to its attack roll for the duration of that battle.

Use as you will.

-M_R
 
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Bill Eldard
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midnight_reaper wrote:
Reinhard Sabel wrote:
...
Would be nice to know, where such an "Good Optional Rules for 2nd Ed A&A Compendium" could be found
Any Idea?

There have been so many different takes on optional rules for Axis and Allies that I doubt there's one compendium for them all. That said, all of the ingredients for making your own rules are already there - which is part of why there have been so many takes over the years.

My suggestion to you is to figure out what you want, and then look for that online, both on BGG and the wider web. Two online sources for you:

The rules for all of the currently in print Axis & Allies games are available through Avalon Hill's Rules webpage: avalonhill.wizards.com/rules. If you look at the rules for Axis & Allies Europe 1940 2nd Edition, you will find the official Axis & Allies rules for fighter interception of strategic bombers (which is supposed to only apply to Europe 1940, Pacific 1940, or Global (the combined Europe and Pacific) 1940 but could be added to any Axis & Allies game).

A large community of Axis & Allies aficionados can be found at: http://www.axisandallies.org/

And my two favorite optional units for Axis & Allies: Paratroopers and Cargo Planes. Paratroopers are obvious, Cargo Planes carry the Paratroopers into battle.

Midnight_Reaper's House Rules]
Unit Name IPC ATK DEF MOVE Notes
Paratrooper 4 1* 2 1 Noted by Country Marker disc beneath Infantry unit. A Paratrooper unit's attack is increased to 2 when doing an Airborne Assault.

Cargo Plane 8 0 0 6 Noted by Country Marker disc beneath Fighter or Bomber unit. May carry one Infantry or Paratrooper unit. May be used to help a Paratrooper unit perform an Airborne Assault.

Airborne Assault
When a Paratrooper unit is carried into battle by a Cargo Plane they can conduct an Airborne Assault. These attacks are subject to Anti-Aircraft Gun fire, as per normal rules. If the Cargo Plane is successful at arriving over the drop zone, (i.e. is not shot down by anti-aircraft fire) then the Paratrooper adds a +1 to its attack roll for the duration of that battle.

Use as you will.

-M_R[/q wrote:

Why are the airborne units increased to an attack value of 2 in an airborne assault? Airborne units were particularly underpowered compared to regular infantry units in WW2. Their effectiveness is rather short unless reinforced by conventional units.

It would seem to me that if I created enough cargo planes, I could obivate the need for transports and amphibious invasions, and merely drop airborne units 4 or more territories away from my location. No?
 
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Midnight Reaper
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Eldard wrote:
midnight_reaper wrote:
...
And my two favorite optional units for Axis & Allies: Paratroopers and Cargo Planes. Paratroopers are obvious, Cargo Planes carry the Paratroopers into battle.

Midnight_Reaper's House Rules wrote:

Unit Name IPC ATK DEF MOVE Notes
Paratrooper 4 1* 2 1 Noted by Country Marker disc beneath Infantry unit. A Paratrooper unit's attack is increased to 2 when doing an Airborne Assault.

Cargo Plane 8 0 0 6 Noted by Country Marker disc beneath Fighter or Bomber unit. May carry one Infantry or Paratrooper unit. May be used to help a Paratrooper unit perform an Airborne Assault.

Airborne Assault
When a Paratrooper unit is carried into battle by a Cargo Plane they can conduct an Airborne Assault. These attacks are subject to Anti-Aircraft Gun fire, as per normal rules. If the Cargo Plane is successful at arriving over the drop zone, (i.e. is not shot down by anti-aircraft fire) then the Paratrooper adds a +1 to its attack roll for the duration of that battle.

Use as you will.

-M_R

Why are the airborne units increased to an attack value of 2 in an airborne assault? Airborne units were particularly underpowered compared to regular infantry units in WW2. Their effectiveness is rather short unless reinforced by conventional units.
Why an attack value of 2 for an airborne assault? Because speed and surprise are potent weapons. Plus, they're my rules, for my game. You can feel free to modify them as you will. Maybe you would prefer to use d12s instead of d6s, and give them a "3" for a hit, instead of the "4" that a straight conversion from a "2" on a d6 would happen to be. Perhaps you'd prefer it if an airborne assault could only be performed as a part of attack with conventional ground troops? Either way, it's a suggested, optional rule. One of my favorite ones, at that.

Eldard wrote:
It would seem to me that if I created enough cargo planes, I could obivate the need for transports and amphibious invasions, and merely drop airborne units 4 or more territories away from my location. No?
One thing to remember about the range of an airborne assault: the cargo planes have to return to friendly territory to land, just as fighters and bombers have to. And if you are attacking 3 territories away from the rest of your forces, you will only be able to support them with bombers - which are not the cheapest option in air support. Also, you will eventually need to supply your airborne formations with regular units to help defend your lines. I find them useful for taking Africa from Britain, and again in taking it back. Again, you could always rule that an airborne assault could only be performed as a part of attack with conventional ground troops, which would change their dynamic.

My 2 , either way.

-M_R
 
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Bill Eldard
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midnight_reaper wrote:
Eldard wrote:
midnight_reaper wrote:
...
And my two favorite optional units for Axis & Allies: Paratroopers and Cargo Planes. Paratroopers are obvious, Cargo Planes carry the Paratroopers into battle.

Midnight_Reaper's House Rules wrote:

Unit Name IPC ATK DEF MOVE Notes
Paratrooper 4 1* 2 1 Noted by Country Marker disc beneath Infantry unit. A Paratrooper unit's attack is increased to 2 when doing an Airborne Assault.

Cargo Plane 8 0 0 6 Noted by Country Marker disc beneath Fighter or Bomber unit. May carry one Infantry or Paratrooper unit. May be used to help a Paratrooper unit perform an Airborne Assault.

Airborne Assault
When a Paratrooper unit is carried into battle by a Cargo Plane they can conduct an Airborne Assault. These attacks are subject to Anti-Aircraft Gun fire, as per normal rules. If the Cargo Plane is successful at arriving over the drop zone, (i.e. is not shot down by anti-aircraft fire) then the Paratrooper adds a +1 to its attack roll for the duration of that battle.

Use as you will.

-M_R

Why are the airborne units increased to an attack value of 2 in an airborne assault? Airborne units were particularly underpowered compared to regular infantry units in WW2. Their effectiveness is rather short unless reinforced by conventional units.
Why an attack value of 2 for an airborne assault? Because speed and surprise are potent weapons. Plus, they're my rules, for my game. You can feel free to modify them as you will. Maybe you would prefer to use d12s instead of d6s, and give them a "3" for a hit, instead of the "4" that a straight conversion from a "2" on a d6 would happen to be. Perhaps you'd prefer it if an airborne assault could only be performed as a part of attack with conventional ground troops? Either way, it's a suggested, optional rule. One of my favorite ones, at that.

Eldard wrote:
It would seem to me that if I created enough cargo planes, I could obivate the need for transports and amphibious invasions, and merely drop airborne units 4 or more territories away from my location. No?
One thing to remember about the range of an airborne assault: the cargo planes have to return to friendly territory to land, just as fighters and bombers have to. And if you are attacking 3 territories away from the rest of your forces, you will only be able to support them with bombers - which are not the cheapest option in air support. Also, you will eventually need to supply your airborne formations with regular units to help defend your lines. I find them useful for taking Africa from Britain, and again in taking it back. Again, you could always rule that an airborne assault could only be performed as a part of attack with conventional ground troops, which would change their dynamic.

My 2 , either way.

-M_R

If you look at the history of airborne assaults in WW2, they were very costly because the combat power of the units steadily declines until they are reinforced. But like you said, they're your rules to play with as you please.
 
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Steve
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Eldard wrote:
maklen9 wrote:
The rules as you've stated them are correct. Basically, the only defense against an industrial bombing raid is via the AA Gun roll at the beginning of the raid.

I believe some of the later, revised editions have rules that would allow for the defending player to scramble fighters to intercept and for the attacking player to bring along a fighter escort to counter. There are undoubtedly rules variants that would allow you to do this for this edition of the game as well. Trying checking the 'Variants' section on the game's page.


Correct.

Axis & Allies has evolved over the years, undoubtedly influenced by feedback for fans. The original units were rather abstract representations of combat qualities, including the anti-aircraft guns representing all the defenses against strategic bombers. But as later editions emerged, rules were introduced for fighter defense against bombers, which of course led to fighter escorts for bombers.

IMHO, all of this was chrome, just as later additions of mechanized infantry (already represented by armor), artillery (already incorporated in the infantry and armor units), and the tactical bombers (already incorporated in fighters).

There have been some genuine improvements at the same time, however, such as better strategic bombing rules, better survivability of battleships, major/minor industrial complexes and better rules, etc.

IMHO, the most important missing mini is the DD. Subs can't fire at planes and TR can't fire when attacking.

If possible I would [& I have] make or buy minis for DD. They are the "cheap ship to die" so that others can fight on. Their power is up to you. I have used a spreadsheet to calculate what the powers can be to avoid making them too good or too bad for the money. My suggestions are:
1] 1-1-2 for $8.
2] 2-2-2 for $11.
3] 3-3-2 for $14.
4] 4-4-2 for $16 or $18 for its bombardment ability.

I hate the non-reality based anti-sub warfare ASW rules that they added in Revised.

If you are on Vassal and can't make new minis then you can do this.
Before the game starts each player decides and announces what his Sub minis will represent. They can be either Subs [no rules changes necessary] or they can be DD [in which case the group would have to define what the powers of the DD are]. I suggest the 2-2-2 to keep them the same as power Subs. IMHO Germany is the most likely to want to keep his Subs as Subs.

My set of ASW rules is:
1] Subs can always move passed/under any group of enemy ships. They only have to fight for 1 round minimum if they stop in a SZ with enemy ships.
2] Subs can't fire at planes or Subs, but the enemy can take a Sub as his loss.
3] Subs must submerge in place to end combat unless they are with other ships when they must retreat with them.
4] Ships sunk by Subs can't fire back unless it is a DD which can fire back. This rule is iffy to me but it is from the original game.
5] When a DD fires and gets a Hit the owner must lose a Sub if he has one.
6] Note that planes can always get 1 shot at a Sub before it submerges if the owner thinks this is a good use for his plane. You might need a houserule to stop or reduce planes attacking Subs while making a transfer move they want to make anyway. Something like it costs 2 range points to attack a Sub that is alone [for the searching all over the SZ they would need to do].
 
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