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Subject: Kickstarter Kaller! rss

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Anthony Avelar
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SO I have been part of many kickstarters and have gotten pretty good at calling which ones will be amazing! (Gloomhaven and Blood Rage). This game looks so beautiful! Those miniatures! BUT the gameplay isn't there. Rolling Dice and not being able to manipulate them unless there are three of the same is really bad. At least use the 2 reroll system and maybe you can't reroll villager dice. This will fall under there is really only 1 or 2 decisions a turn game which isn't fun for thinkers. We are mostly thinkers in this hobby. Also a great theme won't save a bad game. Also just separate scenarios leads to not really playing the game. Look at everyone who has The Others on their dusty shelves. I wasnt some sort of campaign and changing castle to really make this game fun. I also don't want to have to use a second hand one. I really want to like this game and am an early bird. Please let me know what will make this game actually better than the few other board games that stay on my shelf.

Posthuman: way too long with no decisions and all luck
The Others: No buy in to pay again
Shadows of Brimstone: too long to setup

Pluses of the game
+Awesome Theme
+Great Miniatures
+Quick Setup

 
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Paul Nojima
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For me, I think the simplicity of the rules opens doors that would otherwise be closed to most. The variety is in the character types. If the rules are simple, it's easier to play as multiple characters rather than just the minimum of 2. Kind of like Elder Sign.

Another draw for me is the play time... 30+ min? Sweet! I have some beautiful and fun games... that last 3+ hours. How many games of this production quality do you have that you can play on a whim? I think a lot of people see a miniatures game and want depth, complexity, and even play length, and while the dice-chucking mechanic is simple, I think the right combination of characters can really buff it up. The complexity isn't in how you can manipulate the dice, but what each character is able to do with the dice results given.
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Adam Smith
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Antivelar wrote:
SO I have been part of many kickstarters and have gotten pretty good at calling which ones will be amazing! (Gloomhaven and Blood Rage). This game looks so beautiful! Those miniatures! BUT the gameplay isn't there. Rolling Dice and not being able to manipulate them unless there are three of the same is really bad. At least use the 2 reroll system and maybe you can't reroll villager dice. This will fall under there is really only 1 or 2 decisions a turn game which isn't fun for thinkers. We are mostly thinkers in this hobby. Also a great theme won't save a bad game. Also just separate scenarios leads to not really playing the game. Look at everyone who has The Others on their dusty shelves. I wasnt some sort of campaign and changing castle to really make this game fun. I also don't want to have to use a second hand one. I really want to like this game and am an early bird. Please let me know what will make this game actually better than the few other board games that stay on my shelf.

Posthuman: way too long with no decisions and all luck
The Others: No buy in to pay again
Shadows of Brimstone: too long to setup

Pluses of the game
+Awesome Theme
+Great Miniatures
+Quick Setup



We wouldn't go to all this effort if the gameplay wasn't there, Anthony . Let';s try and address these issues:

1. Though it's true for the most part that you cannot directly manipulate dice, we've designed the game with this in mind. The Reserve section of the Monster dashboards allow players to store dice results to be used in later rounds, creating situations that require future planning. Sure, that Magic symbol may not be useful to the Banshee this round, but if you put it in Reserve then she is guaranteed to be able to use her Comb Trap ability in the next round.

2. Many monsters have abilities that allow them to manipulate dice rolls. The Sandman may disregard the first Villager symbol rolled, Black Annis can turn a Magic symbol into any other symbol and the Succubus may resolve Villager symbols in zones nearby to her. These are just a few of the myriad of abilities that the monsters have. The game isn't about rolling a great hand of dice, it's about adapting your tactics and plans to the dice you roll.

3. I'm not entirely sure by what you mean when you say "just separate scenarios leads to not really playing the game" but the scenarios in Village Attacks create a lot of interesting missions. At it's core it is a castle defence game, but having objectives to complete such as kidnapping Villagers, barricading entrances and saving fellow Monsters from capture all add up to a lot of flavour and intrigue.
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Parisa
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I would like to add my two cents to this discussion, hope that's okay. I am by no means an expert gamer, and am currently sitting on the fence for this project for exactly the same reasons given above.

I understand and appreciate the designer's response that there are "reserve" options and special abilities. My question is: if you can't use dice, then you reserve, right? Looks like decision is made for you.

I love the theme, minis, and I do play tower defence on pc so am familiar with the concept. Just not convinved if gameplay and decisions are complling enough for me (personal opinion of course) as it feels like decisions are mostly "This" or else "that" instead of a or b or c or d? And villager movements are always the same, no special tactics for their AI.
Please tell me why I am wrong, because I'd love to be part of this. Thanks

(edit: On second thoght I may be very wrong about enemy AI as I know there are various special types but are not explained much in manual provided, so I am unclear how differently they behave in game)
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Adam Smith
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Parisa wrote:
I would like to add my two cents to this discussion, hope that's okay. I am by no means an expert gamer, and am currently sitting on the fence for this project for exactly the same reasons given above.

I understand and appreciate the designer's response that there are "reserve" options and special abilities. My question is: if you can't use dice, then you reserve, right? Looks like decision is made for you.

I love the theme, minis, and I do play tower defence on pc so am familiar with the concept. Just not convinved if gameplay and decisions are complling enough for me (personal opinion of course) as it feels like decisions are mostly "This" or else "that" instead of a or b or c or d? And villager movements are always the same, no special tactics for their AI.
Please tell me why I am wrong, because I'd love to be part of this. Thanks

(edit: On second thoght I may be very wrong about enemy AI as I know there are various special types but are not explained much in manual provided, so I am unclear how differently they behave in game)


If you can't use dice, you don't have to put them in Reserve. You can simply discard them, as some symbols are not as helpful to some monsters as they are to others.

Villagers always head for the Castle Heart, but their route, damage and speed can vary depending on the map layout and cards that come out of the Village Event deck. Town Heroes are the real dangerous ones, each with their own unique stats and abilities. Here's just some of the ones we've revealed so far:

The Town Heroes add enormous variety to the game, as you'll have to adjust your tactics to deal with these new and unpredictable threats!
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Adam Smith
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Did I mention the type system? There's 5 kinds of monsters: Mythic, Undead, Demon, Cursed and Arcane. But some Villagers also have types; Hunters are given a type at random when spawning and Town Heroes have a type (see cards above) Villagers deal extra damage to Monsters of the same type, so you'll have to be careful which villagers you decide to tackle!
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Eduardo Mateo Castro
Spain
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Grimlord Games wrote:
[q="Antivelar"]

We wouldn't go to all this effort if the gameplay wasn't there, Anthony . Let';s try and address these issues:

1. Though it's true for the most part that you cannot directly manipulate dice, we've designed the game with this in mind. The Reserve section of the Monster dashboards allow players to store dice results to be used in later rounds, creating situations that require future planning. Sure, that Magic symbol may not be useful to the Banshee this round, but if you put it in Reserve then she is guaranteed to be able to use her Comb Trap ability in the next round.

2. Many monsters have abilities that allow them to manipulate dice rolls. The Sandman may disregard the first Villager symbol rolled, Black Annis can turn a Magic symbol into any other symbol and the Succubus may resolve Villager symbols in zones nearby to her. These are just a few of the myriad of abilities that the monsters have. The game isn't about rolling a great hand of dice, it's about adapting your tactics and plans to the dice you roll.


Hello,

I wanted to give an opinion for this game.

I have the impression that the gameplay of this game is too simple and there is no control of the actions, it simply relies on throwing dice and being lucky .. although you say that there is a possibility to reserve dice for future actions, I still see it too simple And with little AI.

I would like to suggest two contributions to make the strip-dice phase much more interesting and logical:

1.- You have taken a day-night data, which replaces one of the dice that you throw ... that seems a great contribution ... but I would add one or two dice per class of monsters, that is, if you throw Given with Demons, you must have 1 die different from the 6 dice you throw (being able to change one, as in day-night), in this way, the characters would behave closer to their class, and when they are upgraded they can be substituted Up to 2 dice. That would allow to give a greater content to the game, more control and much more depth, since according to the class to which the monster belongs we will be able to reserve, to use or to despise the dice / s.

2.- Damage between heroes and monsters should be affected by their class, but that a hero attacks a monster of another class, should not mean that he could not infilge any damage, should be penalized but should affect the attack.

These are comments and I think adding 1 dice per class of monsters can give a significant turn to this game and place it to another level of interest and game planning. What is said for the monsters die is for the heroes, since they are also divided by classes.
 
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Parisa
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Thank you for detailed response. There is definitely information there that I had missed. Looks like the fedce under me is cracking One last question: Is the rules for game final? Or are you still modifying and playtesting ?
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Adam Smith
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edu1969 wrote:
Grimlord Games wrote:
[q="Antivelar"]

We wouldn't go to all this effort if the gameplay wasn't there, Anthony . Let';s try and address these issues:

1. Though it's true for the most part that you cannot directly manipulate dice, we've designed the game with this in mind. The Reserve section of the Monster dashboards allow players to store dice results to be used in later rounds, creating situations that require future planning. Sure, that Magic symbol may not be useful to the Banshee this round, but if you put it in Reserve then she is guaranteed to be able to use her Comb Trap ability in the next round.

2. Many monsters have abilities that allow them to manipulate dice rolls. The Sandman may disregard the first Villager symbol rolled, Black Annis can turn a Magic symbol into any other symbol and the Succubus may resolve Villager symbols in zones nearby to her. These are just a few of the myriad of abilities that the monsters have. The game isn't about rolling a great hand of dice, it's about adapting your tactics and plans to the dice you roll.


Hello,

I wanted to give an opinion for this game.

I have the impression that the gameplay of this game is too simple and there is no control of the actions, it simply relies on throwing dice and being lucky .. although you say that there is a possibility to reserve dice for future actions, I still see it too simple And with little AI.

I would like to suggest two contributions to make the strip-dice phase much more interesting and logical:

1.- You have taken a day-night data, which replaces one of the dice that you throw ... that seems a great contribution ... but I would add one or two dice per class of monsters, that is, if you throw Given with Demons, you must have 1 die different from the 6 dice you throw (being able to change one, as in day-night), in this way, the characters would behave closer to their class, and when they are upgraded they can be substituted Up to 2 dice. That would allow to give a greater content to the game, more control and much more depth, since according to the class to which the monster belongs we will be able to reserve, to use or to despise the dice / s.

2.- Damage between heroes and monsters should be affected by their class, but that a hero attacks a monster of another class, should not mean that he could not infilge any damage, should be penalized but should affect the attack.

These are comments and I think adding 1 dice per class of monsters can give a significant turn to this game and place it to another level of interest and game planning. What is said for the monsters die is for the heroes, since they are also divided by classes.


1. The type system is there to create strategy when combating the Villagers, and the monster's abilities are so varied that we feel that each monster plays almost like its own mini class. There are characteristics between types; Arcane monsters tend to have lower health but higher reserves, Mythic tend to more defence slots than most, etc.

2. Hunters and Town Heroes can damage monsters of any class, they just do MORE damage to monsters of matching classes.
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Adam Smith
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Parisa wrote:
Thank you for detailed response. There is definitely information there that I had missed. Looks like the fedce under me is cracking One last question: Is the rules for game final? Or are you still modifying and playtesting ?


Although we're happy with the core game mechanics and rules, playtesting will continue in the run up to production, right up until the rulebook is printed. You can never playtest too much, and we want the game to be perfect
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Tobias Loeffler
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I'm in the same boat as the OP. I like the theme, the minis, the map, the scenarios, but the gameplay...

IMHO the major "flaw" in the game design is, that you battle randomness with randomness. When you watch the videos on the KS pages, it seems that the game plays the players and not the other way around.

There is also no risk vs. reward or push-your-luck mechanic that usually goes with random-heavy games like this.

I think, they should sit down and change how the monsters work:

- The monsters need some dice-independend basic / weaker actions (move, place trap, defend), that they can use each turn and that allow you (the player) to build a strategy.

- Giving up some or all of that basic actions will give you dice you can roll to trigger stronger abilities, so each round you must decide if you want to do the "small but sure thing" or give that up and try something "big".

- Remove the attack results from the dice. Instead give each monster a unique attack, that goes with its theme and depending on its power is more easy or more difficult to achieve (requiring certain dice results).

- Give each monster a few choices of passive abilities with each level-up, that allow dice conversion (turn 2x result A into B) or give a monster bonus dice when certain situations arise (like being in a certain room or fighting certain townsfolk. etc).

Just my 2 cents.
 
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Paul Nojima
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nimmzwei wrote:
- Giving up some or all of that basic actions will give you dice you can roll to trigger stronger abilities, so each round you must decide if you want to do the "small but sure thing" or give that up and try something "big".

- Remove the attack results from the dice. Instead give each monster a unique attack, that goes with its theme and depending on its power is more easy or more difficult to achieve (requiring certain dice results).

- Give each monster a few choices of passive abilities with each level-up, that allow dice conversion (turn 2x result A into B) or give a monster bonus dice when certain situations arise (like being in a certain room or fighting certain townsfolk. etc).


I don't know for sure, but it seems something similar is in place, in a way. When you level up, you can upgrade abilities. It looks like one one or more abilities, you need to roll certain dice combinations in order to activate... mechanically speaking, I think this can be likened to x2 results turning A into B.

While basic actions like move/trap/defend/etc. sounds like it would open up to more strategy, I think it would also make the game too easy or WAY too hard. Tower defense games ramp up and soon you're being flooded by the proverbial "zurg rush". You need to be able to decide "should I use the 4 melee attacks I just rolled or run the F away and hope I roll the rest of my massive ability combination (or trap I wanna buy that would solve my problem handily)???"

Yes, dice games can lack in strategy, but that doesn't mean I personally find Elder Sign terrible while Cthulhu Wars reigns supreme with gameplay. I love them both dearly. =)
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Dave J
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Your negatives are actually positives for me! There are many many "thinker" games as you put it out there.

Each style of game has it's place.
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