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Subject: I'd like to talk about Scenario 11 (Spoilers) rss

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John Drama
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Yesterday we ran into scenario 11, which gave me a whole new point of view onto the game. Right now I'm not really sure how to think about that. It could significantly influence how much I like the game in the future, depending on how often similar situations will occur.

But let's start from the beginning:
We play Gloomhaven as a 3-player game. Our party consists of Brute, Mindthief (me) and Spellweaver. Before entering scenario 11 we played 6 different scenarios (1, 2, 3, 4, 9, 81). 5 of them we won on our first attempt. For scenario 81 we needed two trys, because of suboptimal tactical choices. We play on normal difficulty. Scenario 9 we accidently played on hard because I messed up the formula for level calculation. We try to play as close to the rules as possible. Sometimes mistakes happen, but we do our best to rewind back and do it right, if we find out.

I keep reading that Gloomhaven is very hard. Due to our winning records I can not fully sign this. Not that Gloomhaven is an easy game. It is not. Half of our victorys were very close and could easily have been loses as well. But even if that were the case, those loses would have been close as well. So for now I think that the difficulty level is really good. Winning the game is challenging but doable.

Also playing the game is challenging but doable. By that I mean keeping track of all the stuff that is going on. When does which monster do what and why? What are the effects from that, who taks how much damage/condition and why?
This is more difficult that I had thought. Monster stat envelopes are great, placing tokens there is as well. But everything looks so similar.
Inox Guard, Inox Archer, Inox Shaman. All have different artwork but to keep them apart from each other you need to have a really close look. Same is true for the moster stat sheets. "Am I looking at the right monster type? Right number? 4 damage! No 3 three damage, you missed that he has got shield! No 2 damage, he also got a shield on his ability card."
I guess you know what I'm talking about. As you are reading this, you probably played the game at least about the same times I did.

As I said, all this can be challenging with a bunch of monsters, but it's doable and I haven't seen this as a problem or something bothering.
Until scenario 11.

We entered it yesterday. All of us beeing level 3. We lost. We were not even close to beeing close to win. But this is not the point. I'm fine with loosing, especially since we could have done some things a lot better.
My point is not about winning scenario 11 it is about playing it.
At first I really liked the idea of having the undead as allies. Sounded fresh and interesing. But entering the third room just was a fiasco. 16 new monsters/allies added to our three characters and the 3 monsters/allies that we had left from the first 2 rooms. 21 guys that take an action per turn. "What monster is next? Any elite there? What's the number? No your looking wrong, this isn't a guard, it's an archer. So this one attaks that one? No, this one is closer!" Well... of course it's about the same as above, but what I considered to be challenging but doable before, here ended in ridiculous and annoying calculations on academic level that weren't fun anymore. At all.
It's just not possible to not mess up with the standees, monster stats, abilitiy cards, different effects, their execution and still having fun, when havening that much figurs around. Moving the NPCs was like 20 minutes each of the first turns.

I don't know how to say... this wasn't just like before just more. It was like every added standee added exponentially to complexity while at the same time taking out fun exponentially.

I'm afraid that this will go on like that. Or at least happen again repeatedly.

What are your thoughts and experiences with scenario 11? Did you like it? Did you have fun moving all the NPCs? Didn't you mess up all the time?
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Zephram Koepke
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We ran it last night. While it was tedious we got into a pretty good rhythm of who was attacking what and when. That being said, we all breathed a sigh of relief when our last man standing pulled off the win. We were dreading the thought of having to run through it again.
 
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Noel Szczepanski
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Lathspell wrote:
Yesterday we ran into scenario 11, which gave me a whole new point of view onto the game. Right now I'm not really sure how to think about that. It could significantly influence how much I like the game in the future, depending on how often similar situations will occur.

But let's start from the beginning:
We play Gloomhaven as a 3-player game. Our party consists of Brute, Mindthief (me) and Spellweaver. Before entering scenario 11 we played 6 different scenarios (1, 2, 3, 4, 9, 81). 5 of them we won on our first attempt. For scenario 81 we needed two trys, because of suboptimal tactical choices. We play on normal difficulty. Scenario 9 we accidently played on hard because I messed up the formula for level calculation. We try to play as close to the rules as possible. Sometimes mistakes happen, but we do our best to rewind back and do it right, if we find out.

I keep reading that Gloomhaven is very hard. Due to our winning records I can not fully sign this. Not that Gloomhaven is an easy game. It is not. Half of our victorys were very close and could easily have been loses as well. But even if that were the case, those loses would have been close as well. So for now I think that the difficulty level is really good. Winning the game is challenging but doable.

Also playing the game is challenging but doable. By that I mean keeping track of all the stuff that is going on. When does which monster do what and why? What are the effects from that, who taks how much damage/condition and why?
This is more difficult that I had thought. Monster stat envelopes are great, placing tokens there is as well. But everything looks so similar.
Inox Guard, Inox Archer, Inox Shaman. All have different artwork but to keep them apart from each other you need to have a really close look. Same is true for the moster stat sheets. "Am I looking at the right monster type? Right number? 4 damage! No 3 three damage, you missed that he has got shield! No 2 damage, he also got a shield on his ability card."
I guess you know what I'm talking about. As you are reading this, you probably played the game at least about the same times I did.

As I said, all this can be challenging with a bunch of monsters, but it's doable and I haven't seen this as a problem or something bothering.
Until scenario 11.

We entered it yesterday. All of us beeing level 3. We lost. We were not even close to beeing close to win. But this is not the point. I'm fine with loosing, especially since we could have done some things a lot better.
My point is not about winning scenario 11 it is about playing it.
At first I really liked the idea of having the undead as allies. Sounded fresh and interesing. But entering the third room just was a fiasco. 16 new monsters/allies added to our three characters and the 3 monsters/allies that we had left from the first 2 rooms. 21 guys that take an action per turn. "What monster is next? Any elite there? What's the number? No your looking wrong, this isn't a guard, it's an archer. So this one attaks that one? No, this one is closer!" Well... of course it's about the same as above, but what I considered to be challenging but doable before, here ended in ridiculous and annoying calculations on academic level that weren't fun anymore. At all.
It's just not possible to not mess up with the standees, monster stats, abilitiy cards, different effects, their execution and still having fun, when havening that much figurs around. Moving the NPCs was like 20 minutes each of the first turns.

I don't know how to say... this wasn't just like before just more. It was like every added standee added exponentially to complexity while at the same time taking out fun exponentially.

I'm afraid that this will go on like that. Or at least happen again repeatedly.

What are your thoughts and experiences with scenario 11? Did you like it? Did you have fun moving all the NPCs? Didn't you mess up all the time?


This was our most challenging scenario to date. We won because we didn't lose sight of the objective and we left a LOT of mobs standing. We tried to move quick and let the undead allies just distract the other mobs as much as possible. We only killed 2 or 3 mobs in the large room before the last room with the boss.

Very challenging scenario.
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Moose Detective
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We played Scenario 11 twice, a loss followed by a win. I think a lot of it comes down to recognizing the best way to deal with the scenario which is simply
Spoiler (click to reveal)
run through the square without fighting anything


We recognized that strategy right away and still failed the first time because we got NO help from the bones in room 1 and corpses in room 2. They kept not moving so wouldn't do damage OR tank very well. Then in the square itself, our Scoundrel half of a Brute/Scoundrel pair just didn't have enough defense.

The second time through we got enough help from the room 2 corpses but still had to wait for some of them to die so we had enough to spawn in the square.

Our second run through the square literally consisted of

Spoiler (click to reveal)

Turn 1> Scoundrel runs to "empty" corner, brute jumps into fountain to draw the archer's fire.
Turn 2> Scoundrel ran around gold guard and went invisible, brute jumped out of fountain.
Turn 3> Scoundrel disarmed and goes into final room, brute follows to doorway.

And then two turns wailing on the boss and killing him before anything in the main room could react.


Was Scenario 11 more fiddly and longer than other scenarios because it was us fighting through an epic war for control of the city? Yes.

Was it totally worth it and memorable? YES.

This is a card-combat game with 2D terrain overly on plain hexes. Somehow that turned into a war for control of the city between the city guard and undead army, with archers firing defensively from the giant fountain in town square.
Spoiler (click to reveal)
My Brute SUPERJUMPED INTO A GIANT FOUNTAIN to draw everyone's attention to him!!!


with every scenario I've been more and more sold on Gloomhaven, but the Fountain in the middle of Town Square was just showing off.

As for controlling all the undead and guards, we just kind of went through the process figure by figure. With 2 players at least, there was only one non-elite guard and one elite archer in the square. And all the undead were normals. So we could almost just go in number order. The guard and archers dropped the undead pretty quickly in our runs, which is why I'm pretty sure out strategy was the "correct" one. It was time consuming but it didn't seem any more difficult to control because the AI decks are so clean for the most part.

Scenario variety can only be a good thing. If you think that scenario is a bit much, that's ok, you'll beat it and move on. There are plenty of other less crowded scenarios to focus on. I have not seen any other scenario yet with that many things on the board. It has been by FAR the most crowded scenario.
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J
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Lathspell wrote:
What are your thoughts and experiences with scenario 11? Did you like it? Did you have fun moving all the NPCs? Didn't you mess up all the time?


I found that scenario incredibly tedious and not particularly fun (we basically just ran for it and avoided fighting as much as possible), but luckily all the other scenarios have been great.
 
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Zephram Koepke
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We also came to the "just run to the final room and let them fight each other" solution. We got lucky in that the boss died right as the last of our undead backup also fell.
 
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Eamon Burke
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We played the opposing scenario, which works about the same way.

It was tedious and annoying, and if the game kept on like that, I'd stop playing. I don't want to operate a paper computer. Honestly, a lot of the fan-made side scenarios fall into this trap and get so complex and fiddly you wish there was a machine doing it for you. It puts enormous gaps between the moments you make meaningful choices.

But it hasn't been a normal thing, and we've played quite a few scenarios after that. I think it's supposed to be an epic one, a big showdown that you set aside a bit more time for.

Unfortunately for our group, someone was on limited time and we had to play that scenario in under 90 minutes. Glad we won, replaying it would have been an unpopular idea.
 
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John Drama
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I'm glad that our group is not the only one that thinks handling this scenario is tedious and annoying. And I'm also glad that practically everyone who answered still likes what comes later on. I'm relieved that the game is not going on like that, which was what I had feared lately.

We also had considered the run-through tactic, when we had seen what the room had to offer. But we had messed up long before that, so winning was not an option.

Unfortunatley we need to go through that experience again. Not sure if it will be right the next scenario we play. We'll see this weekend.
 
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David desJardins
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Lathspell wrote:
Unfortunatley we need to go through that experience again.


Of course, you don't have to. You could just skip it and declare yourselves the winners. No one's going to report you to the Gloomhaven Authorities.
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John Drama
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DaviddesJ wrote:
Lathspell wrote:
Unfortunatley we need to go through that experience again.


Of course, you don't have to. You could just skip it and declare yourselves the winners. No one's going to report you to the Gloomhaven Authorities.


I'd have to report us. Skipping and pretending we won would be much worse.
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Yoff Lag
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I did it solo with 3 characters. I can tell how long it was to handle every mob.
But, as you play with friends, I can imagine many ways to ease everything starting by sharing the charges.

This was the heaviest scenario I faced so far (40 plays and counting). Some others have a good bunch of creatures to manage but not the allies thing.


Again, I play solo and I would so often love to have someone helping me handling the AI. So take advantage of it !

 
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Wes Holland

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So this one's a bit weird...

In the main campaign, our party decided to investigate the Warehouse and see what Jekserah was up to. We didn't exactly realize it would make her skip town, though.

But, the other player that's super into the game, like me, wanted to play more, so I floated the idea of having a new campaign world, and we'd see what would've happened if we followed Jekserah instead. We're each playing two characters, so it's a four-man scenario setup. Already we've noticed that we have a LOT more gold than the other group...

And then we got to Scenario 11. Having already done Scenario 7 in the main campaign, we identified immediately that we 100% did not want to fight everything in the big room. So, instead, we had the Tinkerer throw a Decoy, and the Brute jumped into the fountain to deal with the Archers... Cragheart shoved the right Guard into the Fountain to get him out of the way, and Spellweaver prepped Crackling Air and just waited, holding onto her power for as long as possible to unload on the Boss whenever we found him...

Worked like a charm. By the time our Decoy died, our slow Undead friends were closer to them than we were, so the stuff in the bottom half of the room was busy, and we only had an Elite Guard (who got shoved into Stun traps repeatedly) and an Elite Archer to bother us while we rushed past them to deal with their boss. The Brute was able to jump in, kill a pair of Archers, then walk out due to the Cragheart blowing a hole in the Fountain.

And then Spellweaver found the Captain and started blasting for a LOT of damage... Worked beautifully. Brute exhausted going to the chest, which was super worth it for him.

I gotta say, Wow. This scenario was definitely really cool. We managed the epic scale of it by having me manage my two characters and the 'friendly' monsters, and my buddy manage everything else. Another tip for Initiative, if you just announce the lowest initiative among things you're controlling, you can figure out who's next pretty easily. After that, just walk through every monster one by one, and you'll be good.
 
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John Drama
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Lathspell wrote:

I don't know how to say... this wasn't just like before just more. It was like every added standee added exponentially to complexity while at the same time taking out fun exponentially.

I'm afraid that this will go on like that. Or at least happen again repeatedly.


To tell the complete story:

Since our first attepmt we played 9 other scenarios until we decided to give it another try. None of those scenarios were a similar bad experience and I'm very happy about that.
Not even our second try of scenario 11 was that bad anymore.

Maybe it's because we already knew what to expect, and that this takes more management than other scenarios. Or maybe we just had a bad day when trying first time.

Whatever, just wanted to point out that noone should be discouraged from my initial posting, everything turned out fine again.
Still I'm glad we won and I don't have to play it a third time.
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Jez Dedman
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We just played the opposing scenario last night (no 12 is it?) to kill Jekserah rather than help her (no one else is using spoilers here in this thread so guess I'm safe!) and although we enjoyed it still, it played differently to other scenarios done so far. Took us 4 1/2 hours for a 4 player game wow

Using allies was fun, and we killed literally all monsters except those in the final room, so obviously didn't use a running tactic to avoid the main fountain room as you can tell! But this is probably what took us so long.

However I am glad from reading this that it seems more of a one off type mission, a kinda of first boss level you might get in a computer game, so it was more epic for this reason.

It was fiddly however and we did do the whole "no, this monster moves 3, not attacks 3, and this one is the one I meant to attack, he has 1 shield, not 2 shields, no that is the guard, not the archer" as the iconography is small and the characters do look similar - especially the various guards!
 
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My friend and I are playing 1 character each. We ran this last night and thought "oh cool undead allies in room 1." We took out room without losing any of allies. Room 2 adds more allies, room 3, there were literally too many undead for us to play... we ran out of standees. We had to use dice to signify allies...Is did we screw up something? We also found this to be a complete chore of a scenario in terms of amount of time to advance.

We paused before the boss room as we had already been playing for 2.5 hours at that point. I'm hoping we didn't do something incorrectly, but the numbers are no making sense to us.

There are more undead and guards in play than there are plastic bases and not enough living corpses standees (10) to put them all in play..anyone else have this problem?
 
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Chris Willott
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Technically, yeah, you played it wrong. If you run out of standees, you are supposed to stop placing - they are deliberately limited. However, if you just run out of plastic bases, just leave the monsters lying down - they are not meant to limit the number of monsters in play.

It was a chore. And we lost the first time and kinda dreaded a second time... actually, I think we lost a second time, but since it was still set up, we powered through and the third time was quick and successful.

Though tedious, it actually proved a great way to really get a handle on monster movement, which has been relatively simple ever since!
 
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Dwight Sullivan
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Watercr3ss wrote:
My friend and I are playing 1 character each. We ran this last night and thought "oh cool undead allies in room 1." We took out room without losing any of allies. Room 2 adds more allies, room 3, there were literally too many undead for us to play... we ran out of standees. We had to use dice to signify allies...Is did we screw up something? We also found this to be a complete chore of a scenario in terms of amount of time to advance.

We paused before the boss room as we had already been playing for 2.5 hours at that point. I'm hoping we didn't do something incorrectly, but the numbers are no making sense to us.

There are more undead and guards in play than there are plastic bases and not enough living corpses standees (10) to put them all in play..anyone else have this problem?

If you run out of standees you are not supposed to use proxies. If you run out you are just out and the new monsters are not spawned.
 
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Tim Rogers
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Yeah, I'm not a fan of scenarios 11 or 12 (done them both in two different campaigns). They're definitely the exception to the rule though, in terms of how overbearing the overhead is.

There are three things I don't enjoy about monster allies:
1) The amount of overhead in this game is already pretty high and doesn't need to be increased threefold.

2) Cursing an enemy and having it drawn for your ally is terrible.

3) The luck of the draw with monster abilities really affects the difficulty of the scenario. You can get allies who end up doing nothing (we had corpses standing around doing nothing for several rounds and ended up getting left behind in scenario 11, making it pretty tough. Alternatively, you can have your allies basically win for you (scenario 12 we had repeated draws of the city guard shield + retaliate, which resulted in a single elite guard taking on 5 living bones and a cultist for 5 rounds and nearly killing them all - they couldn't get through the damn shield and he kept punishing them for trying).

I feel your pain and am also glad that these don't seem to come up very often. Most of the scenarios are pretty fun.
 
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Willottica wrote:
Technically, yeah, you played it wrong. If you run out of standees, you are supposed to stop placing - they are deliberately limited. However, if you just run out of plastic bases, just leave the monsters lying down - they are not meant to limit the number of monsters in play.

It was a chore. And we lost the first time and kinda dreaded a second time... actually, I think we lost a second time, but since it was still set up, we powered through and the third time was quick and successful.

Though tedious, it actually proved a great way to really get a handle on monster movement, which has been relatively simple ever since!


Aaaahh thanks, that makes more sense now. So we should not have placed the extra undead at the top of room 3 that means. That also means that room 3 becomes much harder given that it will be filled with guards only
 
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Sebastian S
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played this in the german version yesterday evening. Solo play with Cracheart and Spellweaver, both level 2.

I agree, most of this scenario is about managing the NPCs. I guess this is just to support the story and since most scenarios are not like this one, I found it really interesting and fresh.

Using the Gloomhaven helper app, therefore not needing monster cards, envelopes and attack modifiers, it made it a lot easier of course.

 
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Jared Buchanan
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This one has been a rough one for us. We have now failed the mission twice, though we were within 4hps of killing the boss the second time around. Having two members get exhausted before opening the final room did us in. Those damn archers have crit more times than I would like to admit.
Fingers crossed for round three.
 
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Yeah, we just played this scenario for the first time, and I really did not enjoy it. We did have some bad luck (our LB's kept drawing the "stand still and heal" card), but it seems like in a 4-player game sides are so uneven that the Guards are going to wipe the floor with the undead allies within a round of opening each door. I mean, in Room 3 alone it's twelve enemies (six of whom are elite) against three non-elite allies. After we opened the door, I think our allies were all dead before the next character's turn started. We tried to sprint through the room (it seemed like the obvious solution), but with six archers drawing the Immobilize card, one character was exhausted and two more were down to 1 HP before we even opened the last door.
Plus it took us four hours. I don't think we're going to play this one again for a while, or if we do, I think we definitely play it with two players so our allies have a chance to contribute.
 
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unimatrix27 wrote:
I agree, most of this scenario is about managing the NPCs.

What do you mean by "manage" the NPCs? Since their actions are card-directed, the decisions I can think of for you is deciding which enemy to attack if they are the same type and equidistant.
Not trying to be a smart-aleck, just want to know if I missed something about how allies work.
 
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Jay Johnson
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RumpusImperator wrote:
unimatrix27 wrote:
I agree, most of this scenario is about managing the NPCs.

What do you mean by "manage" the NPCs? Since their actions are card-directed, the decisions I can think of for you is deciding which enemy to attack if they are the same type and equidistant.
Not trying to be a smart-aleck, just want to know if I missed something about how allies work.

I believe what the person you quoted was referring to is just the amount of time/effort it takes to carry out all the actions for all the monsters (allied monsters and enemy monsters), not necessarily the decision making process. Even though the decision-making follows set procedures, it still takes time/effort to figure out what those actions are supposed to be and to carry them out.
 
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Dustin Ivey
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We were NOT ready for that scenario, we went into it with Spellweaver 5, Scoundrel 4, Tinkerer 4, 2-figure 3.

We knew we had to get to that door but none of us really had the movement to get around the pack of enemies quickly enough to make it into the captain of the guards room.

We ended up getting to the point where we decided that if we don't open that door, we were 100% going to lose this scenario. So the spellweaver was tasked with making a mad dash for the door (they had boots) while the other party members started retreating down the hall.

The spellweaver was the only one in the right place to get to that door as fast as possible.

My spellweaver made a mad dash for the door knowing it was a suicide mission, I was going to die regardless, but then the 2-figure could swap that boss out of that room with anyone that happened to be moving towards the retreating party.

I made it to the door, managed to absorb the attacks and grabbed the chest then was destroyed.

2-figure used his ability that
Spoiler (click to reveal)
swapped the boss out with one of the guards that was very slowly closing in on the retreating party.


The scoundrel got an advantage crit hitting the captain for around 12 damage or so (44 HP total). While the rest of the party members started whomping on the boss.

We managed to beat it with the 2-figure's partner killed, the spellweaver killed in the boss room, 2-figure main exhausted, scoundrel exhausted, and the tinkerer delivering the killing blow.

This scenario took us around 4 hours to complete and we were dreading the fact that we were going to lose the mission until we managed to pull it off down to the last couple possible turns of our party.
 
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