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Subject: How to select the corner you trace the Line of Sigh from rss

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Riccardo Simoni
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Hi Folks,

I believe I know the answer of the question, as this is one of the basic rule of the game, but the other night I had a never ending argument with another player and I decided to let it go. Still I would like your opinion on the following.

Check the following diagram.



The mission comes from the nicely done home-made campaign "For a Few credits more" posted in the file section.
The nice twist in this campaign is that the hero players control mercenaries (bounty hunters) while the Imperial player (renamed here Commander) controls Rebel and Imperial figures. The Imperial figures are not necessarily allied to the mercenaries, it depends on the situation or on the specific mission - which is cool.
Without spoiling it, basically the Imperial (Commander) guy has to deal with AI controlled figures who have their own priorities (but are still controlled by the Imperial players as mission rules dictate).


In this case Figure A (Orange) is an imperial guy whose priority is to attack B (rebel figure).
AI rules instruct that if by the end of its activation it cannot target B directly it will shoot a figure which is preventing it from having a Line of Sight to B.

The issue is that the imperial/commander player controls B, D and E (which are rebel figures) while the hero players control C (a scum figure).
For the commander is important to determine if the imperial figure is attacking one of its 'own' rebel figure or an 'enemy' mercenary.

According to the rules (and this is the question) there is no strict requirement about which corner to pick when you determine LoS as this is entirely up to the attacker. In other words there is no such thing as 'you must attack from the corner closer to the target'.

Learn to play rules seem pretty clear in that sense.

Line of Sight wrote:
Line of Sight: To declare the attack, the target figure must be in line of sight of the attacking figure.
To determine if a target is within line of sight, the attacking player chooses one corner of his figure’s space. Then he traces two straight, uninterrupted lines to two different corners of the target’s space. These lines cannot overlap and cannot be traced through walls (thick black lines), blocked terrain (red lines), or spaces containing figures. See “Example of an Attack” below for a visual example.


So, in quality of Figure A controller, I picked the top-left corner and drew the blue lines towards B. Those blue lines goes through C preventing LoS to B; therefore I declared the attack against C. As I commander I had a benefit in attacking mercenaries.

The other player said that it was not legitimate as A should have drawn LoS from bottom-left or bottom-right corner and therefore passing through D or E respectively (and consequently attack either one).
White lines are an example of LoS through D.

Since my friend did not want to give up, not even after I showed him this rule or the examples of LoS where you clearly see that the attacker can freely choose any of the 4 corners when wants to check for LoS, I let figure A attack D instead and close the discussion (kind of..).

The only agreement we found was that he would acknowledge and respect the forum ruling/confirmation (specially if it comes from the universally considered master expert Pasi and Clipper) on the topic.

So the question again, according to core game rules can A decide to select the LoS in Blue or must choose the white lines (showing only one possible option) as they are sourced by a 'closer' space?


thanks!
R
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Craig S.
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I THINK I understand the question...sorry if my answer makes it clear that I did not:

If the AI protocol instructs you to attack a certain target, and it is possible for you to do so, then you must draw your LOS lines from a corner that will allow it. You can't get around the protocol by saying "Well I want to use this particular corner, so sorry..."
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Pasi Ojala
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Get the Imperial Assault Campaign module for Vassal from http://www.vassalengine.org/wiki/Module:Star_Wars:_Imperial_Assault
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This is really a RAIV question, not a core rule question. See above for the RAIV answer.

Line of sight and the required accuracy are totally separate. You draw line of sight from the corner of your choice, and you count spaces from the attacker's space to the target space.

(If either or both figures are Large, choose one space the figure occupies.)
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Christian Gienger
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With the rules you quoted, I think you have to attack E.

The target is B. The only way to get LOS to B at all if no figure was present is through E as the blocking terrain still blocks LOS.

Or put differently: If you remove one figure at a time, C and D would not yield to LOS to B, but E would.
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Riccardo Simoni
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csouth154 wrote:
I THINK I understand the question...sorry if my answer makes it clear that I did not:

If the AI protocol instructs you to attack a certain target, and it is possible for you to do so, then you must draw your LOS lines from a corner that will allow it. You can't get around the protocol by saying "Well I want to use this particular corner, so sorry..."


The point was not that I did not WANT to attack (the rules were clear, you must attack the figure preventing you from establishing LoS to the priority target), but was WHICH figure A was supposed to attack since multiple were preventing LoS to B.
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Riccardo Simoni
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a1bert wrote:
This is really a RAIV question, not a core rule question. See above for the RAIV answer.

Line of sight and the required accuracy are totally separate. You draw line of sight from the corner of your choice, and you count spaces from the attacker's space to the target space.

(If either or both figures are Large, choose one space the figure occupies.)


This is the answer I was expecting

Accuracy was not a requirement for such attack only LoS. Since I was controlling A I wanted to choose top-left corner (among the 4 possible corners I could attack from) and consequently attack D.

But I will also comment on the other posts as I want to avoid that if don't get an universal consensus my friend will prefer to pick the answer more beneficial to him...
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Craig S.
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sabbione wrote:
a1bert wrote:
This is really a RAIV question, not a core rule question. See above for the RAIV answer.

Line of sight and the required accuracy are totally separate. You draw line of sight from the corner of your choice, and you count spaces from the attacker's space to the target space.

(If either or both figures are Large, choose one space the figure occupies.)


This is the answer I was expecting

Accuracy was not a requirement for such attack only LoS. Since I was controlling A I wanted to choose top-left corner (among the 4 possible corners I could attack from) and consequently attack D.

But I will also comment on the other posts as I want to avoid that if don't get an universal consensus my friend will prefer to pick the answer more beneficial to him...


It sounds like you are hearing what you want to hear. The answer to the question you asked is that you cannot "cheat" the AI protocol by refusing to draw your LOS lines from a corner that would make the AI instructions possible.
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Riccardo Simoni
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Locu wrote:
With the rules you quoted, I think you have to attack E.

The target is B. The only way to get LOS to B at all if no figure was present is through E as the blocking terrain still blocks LOS.

Or put differently: If you remove one figure at a time, C and D would not yield to LOS to B, but E would.


The was no blocking terrain in the real scenario.. I just picked a random map to show the figures positions. Actually I did not even notice the pillar in the blocked terrain (that's another story though.. being slightly color blind I have difficulties in see blocked terrain while I can clearly see impassable ones)

So, if you remove the blocking terrain from the equation (just to be 100% sure - we are talking of the square immediately below D, right?) attacking from any of the 4 corners is legitimate... do we have an agreement? If not can you please elaborate further why not?



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Riccardo Simoni
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csouth154 wrote:
sabbione wrote:
a1bert wrote:
This is really a RAIV question, not a core rule question. See above for the RAIV answer.

Line of sight and the required accuracy are totally separate. You draw line of sight from the corner of your choice, and you count spaces from the attacker's space to the target space.

(If either or both figures are Large, choose one space the figure occupies.)


This is the answer I was expecting

Accuracy was not a requirement for such attack only LoS. Since I was controlling A I wanted to choose top-left corner (among the 4 possible corners I could attack from) and consequently attack D.

But I will also comment on the other posts as I want to avoid that if don't get an universal consensus my friend will prefer to pick the answer more beneficial to him...


It sounds like you are hearing what you want to hear. The answer to the question you asked is that you cannot "cheat" the AI protocol by refusing to draw your LOS lines from a corner that would make the AI instructions possible.


Maybe I was not clear enough and I don't see why you say I wanted to cheat.
The point is "from which corner should the AI draw LoS and attempt to attack B from?" Is there any rule (RAIV or non RAIV) dictating that LoS must be drawn from the CLOSEST corner?

edited after realising that also previous comment might come from the bad map example I picked due to my color blindness.
To reiterate, there is no real blocking terrain, then from A's perspective LoS to B can potentially drawn from all 4 corners w/o going through any blocking terrain.
So the question is "having 4 different corners to draw LoS from which one the AI should pick? Is there any fixed rule or the figure controller can choose the option he prefers?"

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Craig S.
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sabbione wrote:
csouth154 wrote:
sabbione wrote:
a1bert wrote:
This is really a RAIV question, not a core rule question. See above for the RAIV answer.

Line of sight and the required accuracy are totally separate. You draw line of sight from the corner of your choice, and you count spaces from the attacker's space to the target space.

(If either or both figures are Large, choose one space the figure occupies.)


This is the answer I was expecting

Accuracy was not a requirement for such attack only LoS. Since I was controlling A I wanted to choose top-left corner (among the 4 possible corners I could attack from) and consequently attack D.

But I will also comment on the other posts as I want to avoid that if don't get an universal consensus my friend will prefer to pick the answer more beneficial to him...


It sounds like you are hearing what you want to hear. The answer to the question you asked is that you cannot "cheat" the AI protocol by refusing to draw your LOS lines from a corner that would make the AI instructions possible.


Maybe I was not clear enough and I don't see why you say I wanted to cheat.
The point is "from which corner should the AI draw LoS and attempt to attack B from?" Is there any rule (RAIV or non RAIV) dictating that LoS must be drawn from the CLOSEST corner?

edited after realising that also previous comment might come from the bad map example I picked due to my color blindness.
To reiterate, there is no real blocking terrain, then from A's perspective LoS to B can potentially drawn from all 4 corners w/o going through any blocking terrain.
So the question is "having 4 different corners to draw LoS from which one the AI should pick? Is there any fixed rule or the figure controller can choose the option he prefers?"



What I'm saying is that if it's possible to attack the target that the AI protocol prefers, then you must do that. The question is not "Is it possible to draw LOS to the AI's preference from this corner?"; the question is "Is it possible to draw LOS to the AI's preference from any corner?".

The rule that you don't have to use the closest corner to the target you'd like to attack is there because sometimes the closest corner is not the corner that can be used to draw LOS to that target. If it makes it easier, just imagine that "you" means the AI and not you, yourself, when controlling AI.
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Riccardo Simoni
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csouth154 wrote:
sabbione wrote:
csouth154 wrote:
sabbione wrote:
a1bert wrote:
This is really a RAIV question, not a core rule question. See above for the RAIV answer.

Line of sight and the required accuracy are totally separate. You draw line of sight from the corner of your choice, and you count spaces from the attacker's space to the target space.

(If either or both figures are Large, choose one space the figure occupies.)


This is the answer I was expecting

Accuracy was not a requirement for such attack only LoS. Since I was controlling A I wanted to choose top-left corner (among the 4 possible corners I could attack from) and consequently attack D.

But I will also comment on the other posts as I want to avoid that if don't get an universal consensus my friend will prefer to pick the answer more beneficial to him...


It sounds like you are hearing what you want to hear. The answer to the question you asked is that you cannot "cheat" the AI protocol by refusing to draw your LOS lines from a corner that would make the AI instructions possible.


Maybe I was not clear enough and I don't see why you say I wanted to cheat.
The point is "from which corner should the AI draw LoS and attempt to attack B from?" Is there any rule (RAIV or non RAIV) dictating that LoS must be drawn from the CLOSEST corner?

edited after realising that also previous comment might come from the bad map example I picked due to my color blindness.
To reiterate, there is no real blocking terrain, then from A's perspective LoS to B can potentially drawn from all 4 corners w/o going through any blocking terrain.
So the question is "having 4 different corners to draw LoS from which one the AI should pick? Is there any fixed rule or the figure controller can choose the option he prefers?"



What I'm saying is that if it's possible to attack the target that the AI protocol prefers, then you must do that. The question is not "Is it possible to draw LOS to the AI's preference from this corner?"; the question is "Is it possible to draw LOS to the AI's preference from any corner?".

The rule that you don't have to use the closest corner to the target you'd like to attack is there because sometimes the closest corner is not the corner that can be used to draw LOS to that target. If it makes it easier, just imagine that "you" means the AI and not you, yourself, when controlling AI.


Craig, I have the impression you did not get the actual point.
Or I could not explain it clearly, although I got two more answers that seem to indicate that my question is vaguely understandable

Statement:
A WANTS to attack B if able.

If he cannot do it it will attack the figure which are blocking the Los to B.



On the map I attached, A cannot attack B. It is not me wanting to bend the rule, it just cannot
It does not have LoS to B from any of its 4 corners it could attack from for the following reasons:

Corner Top Left = C is blocking LoS
Corner Top Right = E is blocking LoS
Corner Bottom Left = D is blocking LoS
Corner Bottom Right = E is blocking LoS

Again, the blocking square in the real scenario was not there...

Since it cannot attack B it must attack another figure.. which one will it pick? That is the question.

So when you say "if it's possible to attack the target that the AI protocol prefers, then you must do that." that is not true, as A cannot attack B directly as the figures in the chart above are blocking LoS.

You are giving an answer of the question I did not ask...

But I am happy to hear your opinion on the right question.

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Craig S.
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sabbione wrote:

Since it cannot attack B it must attack another figure.. which one will it pick? That is the question.



Is this not answered by the AI protocol? Is there no "If / then" direction to follow? Or target list priority in descending order? If the AI protocol does not cover it, then I guess it's up to you...

Sorry for the confusion.
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Riccardo Simoni
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csouth154 wrote:
sabbione wrote:

Since it cannot attack B it must attack another figure.. which one will it pick? That is the question.



Is this not answered by the AI protocol? Is there no "If / then" direction to follow? If the AI protocol does not cover it, then I guess it's up to you...

Sorry for the confusion.


no problem.

About your question, yes, in the case of multiple eligible alternative targets the AI does not say how to handle it as it does not mention distance or accuracy. So in quality of figure A controller I wanted to choose the one that was suiting me best. And I believe that we reached the consensus that I was right in doing that. whistle



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I think it depends on how you interpret the rule:
Quote:
AI rules instruct that if by the end of its activation it cannot target B directly it will shoot a figure which is preventing it from having a Line of Sight to B.

I would interpret it as saying that A would shoot a target if killing that target would give him line of sight to B. In the example, if A killed C, he wouldn't get line of sight to B, since it would still be blocked by D and E. If A killed D or E then he would get line of sight to B. So, A would target D or E, and not target C.

I think this works thematically too. If someone has two guys between him and his target, he'd go after one of them rather than attacking the guy to his side.
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Given the rule Will just quoted, you would quite clearly choose one of the figures that blocks the way.

I also agree this whole argument has nothing to do with the rules of the game, it is about the rules of this variant, which is why you need rules quotes like the one above if you want a good answer.
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Christian Gienger
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I agree with this as it is consistent with my interpretation earlier. Only D and E block LoS to B, so you should attack one of those but that's your choice if D and E.
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Riccardo Simoni
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Clipper wrote:
Given the rule Will just quoted, you would quite clearly choose one of the figures that blocks the way.

I also agree this whole argument has nothing to do with the rules of the game, it is about the rules of this variant, which is why you need rules quotes like the one above if you want a good answer.


Ok, here is the AI rules instructing how to play the imperial figures (up to the moment they joined the fight hero players were playing the mercenaries and the Commander(aka imperial) player was playing the rebels.

'Deploy XX and YY on the blue deployment point. Imperials are played by the Commander player. Their priority is to reach room ZZ and attack the Rebel Leader .
If, at the end of their activation, the Rebel Leader cannot be target of an attack, the imperial figures randomly attack the rebels, or the scums, if they are blocking the line of sight to the rebel leader.

https://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/136851/few-more-credits-f...

Note: that author of this campaign is French and the English version has some mistake here and there. The AI I just pasted comes from the French version as the English version was adding even more controversy.


Edit: Ironically, last night we missed that randomly that now is so evident and explanatory....

I guess that we would have had some challenge selecting the valid target anyway.
In my view we should have randomly selected among C, D and E while my friend would have excluded C for the same reasoning that started the thread.

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Jorgen Peddersen
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The rule is a little ambiguous, but I'd treat the decision as to which figures could be considered blocking line of sight to be those figures that, if removed, would allow you to see the target. This is my definition, as the rules do not provide one.

Under my definition, the target can be seen without removing C, so it is not blocking line of sight.

Incidentally, there's another issue with your original image other than the blocking terrain. The white lines are not valid lines for LoS purposes. The two corners of the target you draw lines to must be adjacent, but the white lines are going to opposite corners. You would need to extend the right vertical line so it reaches the back corner too for the white lines to be a valid pair of LoS lines.
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Riccardo Simoni
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Clipper wrote:
The rule is a little ambiguous, but I'd treat the decision as to which figures could be considered blocking line of sight to be those figures that, if removed, would allow you to see the target. This is my definition, as the rules do not provide one.

Under my definition, the target can be seen without removing C, so it is not blocking line of sight.


That indeed is what common sense would suggest for generic scenarios. But in reality there were other figures between C, D and B (it was a pretty crowded board at that time). So A was not able to attack B even by removing D or E. A kind of dead lock if we were to select the target based on the logic you are suggesting... Since the intention of the rule was the A would attack somebody I don't think that this approach would have helped too much

Quote:
Incidentally, there's another issue with your original image other than the blocking terrain. The white lines are not valid lines for LoS purposes. The two corners of the target you draw lines to must be adjacent, but the white lines are going to opposite corners. You would need to extend the right vertical line so it reaches the back corner too for the white lines to be a valid pair of LoS lines.


yes you are 100% right. I drew wrong LoS lines.

Well, bottom line it seems that the problem arises from a not too clear AI intelligence which is not handling all the variables. There is no single rule interpretation that covers all cases. The agreement is that the AI protocol should have handled this aspect.

Standard rules in general don't give indications to which corner a figure must attack from but leave the controller the decision a free choice.

I think I am happy enough with the conclusions.

Thanks everybody.
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Ugo Perillo
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it's clear that you MUST attack D or E. attacking one of them allow you to see the terget. Attacking C Doesn't.
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Jorgen Peddersen
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sabbione wrote:
Clipper wrote:
The rule is a little ambiguous, but I'd treat the decision as to which figures could be considered blocking line of sight to be those figures that, if removed, would allow you to see the target. This is my definition, as the rules do not provide one.

Under my definition, the target can be seen without removing C, so it is not blocking line of sight.


That indeed is what common sense would suggest for generic scenarios. But in reality there were other figures between C, D and B (it was a pretty crowded board at that time). So A was not able to attack B even by removing D or E. A kind of dead lock if we were to select the target based on the logic you are suggesting... Since the intention of the rule was the A would attack somebody I don't think that this approach would have helped too much

I thought this might come up. You should apply this recursively if no single figure blocks line of sight. In that case, remove pairs of figures and if you can now see the target, add the figures in that pair to the list of potential targets. This will still make C an unlikely target for selection.
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