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Subject: Rising Sun, me, and FOMO rss

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Roger Reisinger
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Rising Sun, man I want this to be the best game I ever played. i love the theme, love area control, and love multi-player dimplomacy. The problem is I realized today that Rising Sun isn't the game I want it to be, and it makes me a sad panda. Do you feel bad Mr. Lang? =)

I was expecting a wargame. Fighting for control of areas while maintaining a defense, using cool monsters as strong units.. following the Bushido code to increase my honor and be the ultimate ruler of Japan! All of this with a revolutionary dimplomacy mechanic was going to make this my favorite game of all time! That was the dream. A game more complicated than Risk/ Axis and Allies, but easier than Here I Stand or Virgin Queen. A game that apealled to wargamers as well as fantasy buffs.. cause you know, it had monsters!

What I realize now is that for all the cool stuff going on, at it's heart Rising Sun is a euro-game. The armies aren't armies, just placeholders to show control. This game has a feel of any other point salad game I've played. Control and area, get points, lose units, get points, special card for getting points for probably everything under then sun. This game I think will dissapoint me the same way Scythe did. For all the cool plastic and theme of a wargame... it just isn't. At it's heart it is a euro with cool minis.. or not.
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Jason Brown
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How on earth did you think this was a war game? From the time it was revealed last Summer, we've known it was a diplomacy game.
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Jesse Marzel
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Lowecore wrote:
Rising Sun, man I want this to be the best game I ever played. i love the theme, love area control, and love multi-player dimplomacy. The problem is I realized today that Rising Sun isn't the game I want it to be, and it makes me a sad panda. Do you feel bad Mr. Lang? =)

I was expecting a wargame. Fighting for control of areas while maintaining a defense, using cool monsters as strong units.. following the Bushido code to increase my honor and be the ultimate ruler of Japan! All of this with a revolutionary dimplomacy mechanic was going to make this my favorite game of all time! That was the dream. A game more complicated than Risk/ Axis and Allies, but easier than Here I Stand or Virgin Queen. A game that apealled to wargamers as well as fantasy buffs.. cause you know, it had monsters!

What I realize now is that for all the cool stuff going on, at it's heart Rising Sun is a euro-game. The armies aren't armies, just placeholders to show control. This game has a feel of any other point salad game I've played. Control and area, get points, lose units, get points, special card for getting points for probably everything under then sun. This game I think will dissapoint me the same way Scythe did. For all the cool plastic and theme of a wargame... it just isn't. At it's heart it is a euro with cool minis.. or not.


It's not a euro, it's a negotiation game.
Did you play Nothing Personal, City of Horror, New-Angeles, those kinds of games? They aren't euros, though they do have points and area control and all that.

I wrote an overview. It's much closer to what you want it that it is to Scythe (which I didn't enjoy).

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1741858/game-overview-what-...
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Freelance Police
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It's Eric Lang. It's a hybrid, which means it's still a Eurogame.

There are *plenty* of Japanese feudal wargames (and roleplaying games) available, and I'm sure you can use the RS figures for the games.

There's even a panda: http://www.bushido-thegame.com/sites/default/files/imagepick...

http://www.bushido-thegame.com/

Beasts of War regularly advertises miniatures games, and here's GCT's Bushido: http://www.beastsofwar.com/bushido/hold-line-ito-clan-okyo-a...



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Timothy Young
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MAJBrown22 wrote:
How on earth did you think this was a war game? From the time it was revealed last Summer, we've known it was a diplomacy game.


But those two elements aren't mutually exclusive, right? Diplomacy and Senji come to mind.

 
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Greg Justice
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I'd love to hear your definition of point salad. Literally, just for a personal frame of reference. I dislike them as well, but I've found that there seems to be a fairly significant variation in how it gets defined.

I would define a point salad as a game that not only has many ways to score points, but ALSO presents in a way that your decisions don't matter. Essentially a game that can play itself. Contrasted with decisions that do matter, which opens up the possibility that the game might have a lot of depth.
 
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Tomasz Podsiadło
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The game you're probably looking for is Cthulhu Wars, apart from feudal Japan setting.
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Roger Reisinger
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Hi guys, thx for the replies. Ill try to answer and elloborate on the questions:

@jason: like Tomasz has said, I dont think diplomacy and wargames are mutually exclusive. There are many examples of diplomacy mechanics within wargames. Here I Stand is one of my favorites but the length, complexity, and religious roll-offs are parts of the game that are negative for me. I was hoping Rising Sun was going to be able to replace it in some way.

@joe: no I havent played any of the games you mentioned. i'll have to take a look at them. If they combine area control with negotiation that would be something Im interested in. Especially if it plays 6 players as that is the size of my game group.

@freelance: Ill definitely still back Rising Sun. I think it will get table time just as Scythe does but Im still looking for my personal holy grail war/ diplomacy game.

@greg: good point. I dont know what the true definition of point salad is, if there even is one... but to me gathering points in a multitude of ways is how I define it. I dont mean it as the game plays itself, just that there are many many paths to victory, so many that you cant make a bad choice, just a slightly less optimal choice. An example to me would be Trajan. I like Trajan but the scores are all pretty close at the end of the game no matter what you choose to do. I get that vibe from Rising Sun and one of the reasons I didn't fall in love with Blood Rage either.

Im my mind Rising Sun was going to use vp's from controlling areas almost exclusively, and the negotiation/ diplomacy in the game was going to be from players having large areas of control wit limited forces to protect/ attack with. The choices were going to be more like, " do I use the bulk of my force to control 1 area that generates a lot of vp, or do I ally with someone and spread otu to control many smaller areas that egenrate less vp individually but more when combined. S\prinkle in monsters, variable player powers, different units, action tiles and a new way of doing official alliances/ diplomacy and that was what I was imagining.

Just to clarify, I think Rising Sun will be a good game it just won't end my search for the diplomatic/ euro/ wargame that I am looking for!

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Roger Reisinger
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omnibus4404 wrote:
The game you're probably looking for is Cthulhu Wars, apart from feudal Japan setting.


Yes, I hummed and hawwed when this was coming out. Im a big fan of Chaos in the Old World and it drew comparisons to CW when I was researching it. The only thing that held me back was I'm not big into the mythos... and Feudal Japan really interests me which drew my attention to Rising Sun.
 
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Jason Brown
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TIM0THY wrote:
MAJBrown22 wrote:
How on earth did you think this was a war game? From the time it was revealed last Summer, we've known it was a diplomacy game.


But those two elements aren't mutually exclusive, right? Diplomacy and Senji come to mind.


They're not mutually exclusive, but that has nothing to do with my response.

The OP said:

Lowecore wrote:
I was expecting a wargame.


My response was to question how he ever came to this conclusion. At no time did anyone involved in the making of this game ever intonate that it played remotely like a wargame.
 
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Patrick Reynolds
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I'm sorry, you lost me at "This game has the feel of any other point salad game I've played."
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MAJBrown22 wrote:
How on earth did you think this was a war game? From the time it was revealed last Summer, we've known it was a diplomacy game.
To be fair, it has agressive-looking minis from different clans on a map with different regions and big destructive looking monsters. Don't be rude to the poor guy if he missed the boat on the diplomacy comparison.
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Ignazio Corrao
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A gigantic dragon and oni carrying dozens of severed heads don't exactly look like diplomatic tools.
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Tilou
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Chromit90 wrote:
A gigantic dragon and oni carrying dozens of severed heads don't exactly look like diplomatic tools.


On the contrary, that's the best kind of diplomatic.

Edit for clarity: In order to negociate you need a lever. An Oni carrying severed heads is a goddam good lever.
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Max Maloney
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ElCapitan76 wrote:
I would define a point salad as a game that not only has many ways to score points, but ALSO presents in a way that your decisions don't matter. Essentially a game that can play itself.

That seems like a pretty narrow definition. I think the usual meaning of point salad is that you get points many different ways and that most elements of the game reward points in some way. This can lead to a feeling that nothing matters, since everything turns into points, but it is not usually strictly true that all actions are equivalent.

Using a popular game as an example, The Castles of Burgundy gives points for just about everything but I have seen games decided by 3 points and blowouts with a 100-point spread. (I don't personally like CoB, but I think it's a good example in this case.)
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Dormammu wrote:
ElCapitan76 wrote:
I would define a point salad as a game that not only has many ways to score points, but ALSO presents in a way that your decisions don't matter. Essentially a game that can play itself.

That seems like a pretty narrow definition. I think the usual meaning of point salad is that you get points many different ways and that most elements of the game reward points in some way. This can lead to a feeling that nothing matters, since everything turns into points, but it is not usually strictly true that all actions are equivalent.

Using a popular game as an example, The Castles of Burgundy gives points for just about everything but I have seen games decided by 3 points and blowouts with a 100-point spread. (I don't personally like CoB, but I think it's a good example in this case.)


It's a perfect example. A good player of CoB will smash a noob. Point salad does absolutely not mean that decisions don't matter.
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Fel Barros
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The game itself is not a point salad and it's far from being an eurogame.

Scoring points and winning the game is pretty non-intuitive at first. Most of the actions does not have a direct relation to scoring points. You don't get points for placing strongholds or doing a betrayal or sending a guy to worship. You setup yourself to score vps. Even if you focus on cards to do it, it is not a direct relation.

It's far from being an eurogame because it lacks the "hermetic" experience of the euros where you have fully control of everything you can do in the game and players can mildly interfere with your gameplan. Players' interaction is VERY strong and infuencing, bribing and making /breaking deals makes a splash in your chances of winning the game. Of course, skillful management of your actions and resources are also important but games are heavily influenced by players' action not the other way around.

From reading the rules on the surface you can glance some euro-related mechanics but it's a very different game from Scythe and Blood Rage as well.

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My thoughts exactly! I was expecting a war game with monsters and diplomacy in the form of alliances and negotiations but the gameplay video proved me wrong. It's a point salad-y eurogame with some game mechanics that seem infuriating to me, especially the weakness of monsters. First player buys a monster, the second one kidnaps it, unless the first player makes it kill itself first. What is the point of all these exclusive monsters if they are so useless? Also, my issue with point salads in general is that there is always one way that generates more points than others and once players have cracked the code, the fun stops there. I'm still waiting for a rule book, but at this moment I'm thinking about jumping off this train.
 
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Terence M
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Lowecore wrote:
Hi guys, thx for the replies. Ill try to answer and elloborate on the questions:

@jason: like Tomasz has said, I dont think diplomacy and wargames are mutually exclusive. There are many examples of diplomacy mechanics within wargames. Here I Stand is one of my favorites but the length, complexity, and religious roll-offs are parts of the game that are negative for me. I was hoping Rising Sun was going to be able to replace it in some way.

@joe: no I havent played any of the games you mentioned. i'll have to take a look at them. If they combine area control with negotiation that would be something Im interested in. Especially if it plays 6 players as that is the size of my game group.

@freelance: Ill definitely still back Rising Sun. I think it will get table time just as Scythe does but Im still looking for my personal holy grail war/ diplomacy game.

@greg: good point. I dont know what the true definition of point salad is, if there even is one... but to me gathering points in a multitude of ways is how I define it. I dont mean it as the game plays itself, just that there are many many paths to victory, so many that you cant make a bad choice, just a slightly less optimal choice. An example to me would be Trajan. I like Trajan but the scores are all pretty close at the end of the game no matter what you choose to do. I get that vibe from Rising Sun and one of the reasons I didn't fall in love with Blood Rage either.

Im my mind Rising Sun was going to use vp's from controlling areas almost exclusively, and the negotiation/ diplomacy in the game was going to be from players having large areas of control wit limited forces to protect/ attack with. The choices were going to be more like, " do I use the bulk of my force to control 1 area that generates a lot of vp, or do I ally with someone and spread otu to control many smaller areas that egenrate less vp individually but more when combined. S\prinkle in monsters, variable player powers, different units, action tiles and a new way of doing official alliances/ diplomacy and that was what I was imagining.

Just to clarify, I think Rising Sun will be a good game it just won't end my search for the diplomatic/ euro/ wargame that I am looking for!



For a hardcore diplomatic/war game, have you tried playing "Game of thrones the board game" by Fantasy Flight?
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Lowecore wrote:
I was expecting a wargame.


I was fully expecting this to be a Diplomacy game, rather than a wargame, which is truly unfortuate for how little I play that particular genre. Even worse is how lovely the minis are. Arguably CMoN's best set of mini's to date.

I think Rising Sun would make for a really nice Mystical Japanese wargame toolbox, but I'm not necessarily prepared to write that game...
 
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Quote:


For a hardcore diplomatic/war game, have you tried playing "Game of thrones the board game" by Fantasy Flight?


You beat me to the punch as I was going to say the same thing - from the general notes, discussion and map - Rising Sub reminds of a japanese version Game of Thrones 2nd edition. Our group loved GoT as it is a heavy 6 player interaction and negotiation while moving units around a big map. You have to make and break alliances while jockeying for positions on the various tracts while defending from the Wildings and trying to reach 7 castles.

Rising Sun has way better miniatures but the map does look a bit crowded. I still love the concept but I want to read the rules before I back it.
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tilouboy wrote:
Dormammu wrote:
ElCapitan76 wrote:
I would define a point salad as a game that not only has many ways to score points, but ALSO presents in a way that your decisions don't matter. Essentially a game that can play itself.

That seems like a pretty narrow definition. I think the usual meaning of point salad is that you get points many different ways and that most elements of the game reward points in some way. This can lead to a feeling that nothing matters, since everything turns into points, but it is not usually strictly true that all actions are equivalent.

Using a popular game as an example, The Castles of Burgundy gives points for just about everything but I have seen games decided by 3 points and blowouts with a 100-point spread. (I don't personally like CoB, but I think it's a good example in this case.)


It's a perfect example. A good player of CoB will smash a noob. Point salad does absolutely not mean that decisions don't matter.


So it's either. Fair enough. I know the modifier of meaningful decisions narrows the definition, but that's what I would consider to be the most critical element. I see the description often being used as a pejorative, which, for me anyway, may or may not be true. It's all based upon whether or not the game indeed has those meaningful decisions. I would also argue, Dormammu, that if you are getting the feeling that nothing matters, then the decisions aren't truly meaningful.

To be fair, I figure that I'm more of an outlier on this and I do see the term used more often to describe a game in which just about everything will score you points. I typically just ask to clarify it a bit and I do find the ensuing discussions of interest.
 
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Roger Reisinger
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@Terrence:

Yes we do play AGoT and we all enjoy it a lot. I was definitely thinking Rising Sun would be along those lines, but set in Feudal Japan and with an Eric Lang twist on it, with of course the awesome minis from CMON

Some people have stated I had false expectations from the start as Rising Sun was never intended as a war game. When I heard it was based on Diplomacy I immediately thought wargame, but I have a confession to make.. I've never played Diplomacy, I only assume it is a wargame with negotiation.. so maybe my initial thoughts were mis-placed right from the beginning!
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I am a sucker for Japanese feudal fantasy theme & i do dare say that this maybe the best it gets on a boardgame. The Japanese wouldnt make one themselves.
Will still pledge all in if CMON were to later make a Zombidicide of Japanese Feudal theme.
I do understand OP gripe about having all these wonderful miniatures but minimal game contents & even less abilities, texts. Maybe it would have been better if it were more like Warquest or Runewar? But this is a CMON creation & they are all for more minis & lesser game elements.
This is the first time i am pledging again with CMON after what they have done to Sedition war.
If my gaming group were not to like RS seppuku happy battle system & no-holds barred diplomancy, i know i will still have those fantastic Oni miniatures. They have that unconventional Japanese look that only Adrian Smith is capable of imagining.
 
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Ahmad Siddiqi
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@Roger I would say you're correct in your assumptions of Diplomacy as a wargame. The battle system in Game of Thrones is in fact derived from a Diplomacy base. (Granted, in Diplomacy negotiation is even more central since there are no variable battle strength modifiers like the House cards in GoT - it's just troop strength, so player decisions/negotiations are the only drivers of uncertainty.)

I hear you about the VPs in Rising Sun, that's probably my only remaining concern with the game. For my war-themed games I much prefer the control X places for victory mechanic of GoT or Dune (another great war/diplomacy game) or Risk Legacy over a who has the most points at the end mechanic - I like the dynamic of working towards big, game-winning moves at the end.
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