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Subject: So this game is about everything that is wrong about dice randomness? rss

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King Maple
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I just looked at this video about the game:

https://youtu.be/8MSlvI58U30

This game sounds like everything that is bad about dice randomness (and I love dice). I mean, buying die faces that may never even show up while you just have 9-10 turns!? :/

How can you actually make any real decisions in this game?
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Marwin Hebot
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You roll all your dice and gain resources on every other players turn as well. So it is actually 9/10 times the number of players dice rolls cool
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Jacob Casper
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If anything it seems that it gives you huge ability to get the resources you need.
 
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Miguel A Fernandez Rico
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marhew wrote:
You roll all your dice and gain resources on every other players turn as well. So it is actually 9/10 times the number of players dice rolls cool


That brought me an interesting point. If you roll in each of your opponents turns plus yours, what it would happen is that in a 2 player game there would be WAY less points right? In the explanation of the rules they said that the points come from your rolls plus the cards you buy with your resources. If you have less rolls, you would get less points and less cards because you would have less resources (about half on average). Am I missing something? And even worse, you would have a less feeling of progression, because you would buy less cards with powerfull (and probably cool) efects.

Just an example, with 4 rolls lets say you got one face of each, so 1 red, 1 green, 1 blue and 1 yellow (just sawing the pictures I think this are the resources. With same luck, in 4 players game, in my turn I would have double that. So in 2 players game, I would need to wait to my round 2 to do what I could have do in turn 1 in a 4 players game.
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Hello!
Slashdoctor wrote:
This game sounds like everything that is bad about dice randomness (and I love dice). I mean, buying die faces that may never even show up while you just have 9-10 turns!? :/

How can you actually make any real decisions in this game?

You roll your dice even where you're not the active player (so at least 36 times in a 4-players game, not 9) and number of events and cards make you roll the dice again. At the end, it is closer than 40-45 dice rollings.

miguel_fernan wrote:
That brought me an interesting point. If you roll in each of your opponents turns plus yours, what it would happen is that in a 2 player game there would be WAY less points right? In the explanation of the rules they said that the points come from your rolls plus the cards you buy with your resources. If you have less rolls, you would get less points and less cards because you would have less resources (about half on average). Am I missing something? And even worse, you would have a less feeling of progression, because you would buy less cards with powerfull (and probably cool) efects.

Just an example, with 4 rolls lets say you got one face of each, so 1 red, 1 green, 1 blue and 1 yellow (just sawing the pictures I think this are the resources. With same luck, in 4 players game, in my turn I would have double that. So in 2 players game, I would need to wait to my round 2 to do what I could have do in turn 1 in a 4 players game.

In a 2-players game, you roll your dice twice each time.
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marhew wrote:
You roll all your dice and gain resources on every other players turn as well. So it is actually 9/10 times the number of players dice rolls cool


True, but it won't be enough. While I'm unsure how much engine building there is, if one player gets an early advantage due to good dice rolls in first two turns then they get so much ahead in the curve thanks to pure luck. In fact almost 1/3rd probability. Of course same applies to it being favorable.

I think that the 'coolness aspect' of building your dice is masking what is otherwise a luck based gateway game.

And anyone else find the dice extremely clunky and fiddly overall? Other than a table presence, I almost would have thought a deck of cards would do a better job and gives better handles for probability mitigation.
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Slashdoctor wrote:
True, but it won't be enough. While I'm unsure how much engine building there is, if one player gets an early advantage due to good dice rolls in first two turns then they get so much ahead in the curve thanks to pure luck. In fact almost 1/3rd probability. Of course same applies to it being favorable.

I think that the 'coolness aspect' of building your dice is masking what is otherwise a luck based gateway game.

And anyone else find the dice extremely clunky and fiddly overall? Other than a table presence, I almost would have thought a deck of cards would do a better job and gives better handles for probability mitigation.
Many people love chaos and randomness. You don't seem to. I think the game looks fun. I guess you're just looking for someone who agrees with you to validate your untested assumptions about the game? You haven't played it yet so you can't say whether 40 to 45 dice rolls (or whatever it might be) is enough.
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Michael Van Biesbrouck
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Blank White Dice seems to work, and there are probably fewer die rolls in that game.
 
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Marwin Hebot
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miguel_fernan wrote:
So in 2 players game, I would need to wait to my round 2 to do what I could have do in turn 1 in a 4 players game.

Hmm, maybe this is mitigated by the fact that you are active player more often and can upgrade your dice faces more often (I think they said you can buy only one die face per turn)? Maybe someone who played this game already can comment on how it plays with 2 as compared to 4 players.
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Miguel A Fernandez Rico
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miguel_fernan wrote:
That brought me an interesting point. If you roll in each of your opponents turns plus yours, what it would happen is that in a 2 player game there would be WAY less points right? In the explanation of the rules they said that the points come from your rolls plus the cards you buy with your resources. If you have less rolls, you would get less points and less cards because you would have less resources (about half on average). Am I missing something? And even worse, you would have a less feeling of progression, because you would buy less cards with powerfull (and probably cool) efects.

Just an example, with 4 rolls lets say you got one face of each, so 1 red, 1 green, 1 blue and 1 yellow (just sawing the pictures I think this are the resources. With same luck, in 4 players game, in my turn I would have double that. So in 2 players game, I would need to wait to my round 2 to do what I could have do in turn 1 in a 4 players game.

In a 2-players game, you roll your dice twice each time.[/q]

That solved it, thanks! More and more interested in this game now , as I only play 2 players I was wondering if it would be good enough
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Immortal
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istead of rolling 2x in 2 players, Can we jsut play with 4 dice?
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James Larochelle
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nightwishpower wrote:
istead of rolling 2x in 2 players, Can we jsut play with 4 dice? :D


That wouldn't work very well since you'd have to split up the die faces you buy between four dice instead of two, thus diluting whatever synergy you could get. Basically, two rolls of two good dice should beat out one roll of four mediocre dice.
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Donny Behne
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nightwishpower wrote:
istead of rolling 2x in 2 players, Can we jsut play with 4 dice?


I've considered a solution but it's a lot more work. Start the game with four dice. Since only two of each type of face is available in a two player game, you use all four, but when you buy one, you get two. Apply them to the exact same type of die (both light dice or both dark dice) in the exact same spot on the die (like it matters, random is random, just be sure that you take the same face off of both when forging) and you can roll four dice each divine blessing instead of two dice twice.

It's way more work than it's worth, but that's me. As above, if you used four, but only bought one copy of the face when you buy it, you are getting significantly less value for each purchase.
 
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Richard Dewsbery
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Slashdoctor wrote:
While I'm unsure how much engine building there is, if one player gets an early advantage due to good dice rolls in first two turns then they get so much ahead in the curve thanks to pure luck.


Only played once, might not have been paying enough attention, but I would say that our game was won by the player who had the least interesting rolls, but who bought the right cards at the right time. I certainly felt like I'd been outplayed, rather than outrolled.
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meles meles
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Perhaps in a 2 player game, but in 4 player games it evens out quite a bit. The game Dice Forge reminds me of is Dominion, which was initially derided as a luck-based, casual game. Later, it attracted people who are heavily into probability, computer simulations and analysis.

I think this game is quite tricky, and definitely benefits from knowledge of probability and being proficient at high school math. For example, how many 0 cost cards is it optimal to buy? You need to anticipate in advance how much gold can you expect over the course of the game, and how much diverting some of it will slow your progress. What's more, you can't afford to calculate all outcomes with pen&paper before a match, because you may get different rolls and need to improvise.

A single die roll is very random. More die rolls decreases uncertainty. For example, if you roll a die with 1 sun and 5 gold, your chance of getting a sun shard is 1/6 (approx 1/16, so 16%). If you roll the die 4 times, the chance of getting at least one sun shard is 1 - 5/6 * 5/6 * 5/6 * 5/6, approximately 52%. The formula is called Bernoulli Trials if you're willing to look it up.

It baffles me people voted this game 1.8ish on complexity scale. It has more strategy (meaning: long term) than Race for the Galaxy, which is mostly tactical (short term decisions). The game is either very simple or quite involved, depending on how good you're at math, especially on the fly.
 
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Richard Dewsbery
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I've now played it quite a bit, and it is a dice game; if you buy a good face early and roll it again and again, you are in a much better position than if you buy that same tile and never roll it. That's the way things are with dice. But it's not a luck-fest; as with other dice games, good play will make allowances for bad rolls.
 
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Michael Van Biesbrouck
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I got a chance to play this last week. As a 3P game there were enough rolls for things to even out but not so many that the resources you would have on a turn were predictable. In the end, you had one resource that allowed you to improve the engine for two others and raw VPs. Converting the other other resources to VPs took up the second half of the game and the main issue was whether opponents would finish off the more efficient cards before you could get them.

Blank White Dice seemed to be more interesting strategically despite being more random.
 
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Slashdoctor wrote:
marhew wrote:
You roll all your dice and gain resources on every other players turn as well. So it is actually 9/10 times the number of players dice rolls cool


True, but it won't be enough. While I'm unsure how much engine building there is, if one player gets an early advantage due to good dice rolls in first two turns then they get so much ahead in the curve thanks to pure luck. In fact almost 1/3rd probability. Of course same applies to it being favorable.

I think that the 'coolness aspect' of building your dice is masking what is otherwise a luck based gateway game.

And anyone else find the dice extremely clunky and fiddly overall? Other than a table presence, I almost would have thought a deck of cards would do a better job and gives better handles for probability mitigation.


I find it less luck based than other dice games, because you do have decisions to make. Which card or die faces you buy have a pretty big impact, and being able to change die faces at all make it less luck dependent than games using regular dice. Because you cannot improve your odds of getting what you want.

You are correct that the game could have been done as a deck builder with two decks of 6 cards which replaces themselves. However, I don't know that it would have been more consistent. As players don't tend to properly randomize their decks when shuffling cards. Especially when the deck is small.
 
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