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Subject: Mr. Fixer Variant: Timely Strike rss

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Christopher Webb
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So.. . .. I've seen a bunch of people do stuff to try to bring Mr. Fixer up to power as a good hero. I'm not posting this to discuss as to whether he's appropriately balanced or not. I believe that the general consensus is that he is underpowered and this concept comes from there.

This variant is actually inspired by F5 AZ. That version is SIGNIFICANTLY better than the original and is much better at doing damage, getting built up, and recovering from a wipe. So here's a new Mr. Fixer, who waits patiently, sets himself up for the right time to hit, and lands blows where they count.

Timely Strike: Discard 2 cards. If you did, Search your deck or trash for a copy of Charge and an equipment card. Put one into play and the other in hand. Shuffle your deck.

So. . . .Basically he will always have access to the tool that he needs for a given situation, but not always the right style. The obvious play is to quickly get a tool box out to help him shuffle through his deck.
You'll also notice that his base Strike power doesn't deal damage, but this is made up for by the fact that he will ALWAYS have a charge in hand or a Charge to play, which does only a bit more damage than his base power does by default anyway (only 2).

What do ya'll think?
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Alexa Elvrayen

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How does he sustain Timely Strike? He doesn't draw 2 cards every turn, so it rapidly becomes "Get Charge out of your trash and never do anything else".
It ruins Bloody Knuckles, as he'll have no way to deal damage without out of turn card plays (out of turn power use, far more common, no longer benefits him) and makes Overdrive an absolute garbage card.
Without his base power allowing him to deal damage (sometimes multiple times per turn), Mr. Fixer becomes even more boring than he was.
 
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Christopher Webb
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Alexa_Elvrayen wrote:
How does he sustain Timely Strike? He doesn't draw 2 cards every turn, so it rapidly becomes "Get Charge out of your trash and never do anything else".
It ruins Bloody Knuckles, as he'll have no way to deal damage without out of turn card plays (out of turn power use, far more common, no longer benefits him) and makes Overdrive an absolute garbage card.
Without his base power allowing him to deal damage (sometimes multiple times per turn), Mr. Fixer becomes even more boring than he was.


... Ok I'm not sure if you didn't think about your post, or just didn't understand how this variant would work.

First off, Mr. Fixer's Base power DOESN'T deal damage because it doesn't NEED to. It allows him to either a.) Pull a charge (which deals 2 melee damage) from ANYWHERE and PUT IT INTO PLAY or into his hand or b.) Pull ANY equipment out and either PUT IT INTO PLAY or into his hand. Baccarat does damage in a VERY similar manner as this variant of Mr. Fixer would.

He sustains Timely Strike by pulling his TOOLBOX out and playing it. If he uses his power to play it, he got 3 cards that turn and put a charge in hand (at the cost of discarding 2 cards). If he puts it in hand, he can use his play to put it in hand NEXT turn and have more cards to discard.

In truth, the power boils down to one of the following:
1.) Deal 2 damage, store an equipment.
2.) Play an equipment, store 2 damage.

At the the cost of 1 card in hand.

I apologize if this post sounds condescending, but your post comes across as aggressively critical without fully thinking out how the concept works.
 
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Alexa Elvrayen

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He can only pull the toolbox so many times, with his power. Unless you're destroying it somehow - and I can only think of two heroes can do this, and it's not consistent - eventually they all end up in your hand. So your play is either toolbox, or lose cards to play a style/etc. So it's "Play Toolbox, deal 2 damage" and... That's going to be most of his gameplay.
You're discarding 2 cards for the sake of a 1 point damage boost from regular Fixer.

Also, just to raise another point that consistently comes up: Infinite grease gun. Play tool box, power grease gun. Next turn grease gun is destroyed and tool box is returned - play tool box, power grease gun.
Repeat ad inifinitum for basically guaranteed win.
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J Sinnett
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Alexa_Elvrayen wrote:
Infinite grease gun.


Echoing this sentiment. I personally don't find Fixer to be underpowered, just swingy. However, any time that something appears anywhere in the game that allows Grease Gun to be played ad infinitum, it's instantly a dealbreaker.

Also, consider the situation where the villain nukes his hand. Now he can't use his power, unless he somehow gets an out-of-turn draw before his turn, two if there's no Toolbox in play. His next turn is immediately 'Draw 2 cards, pass'. Choosing to do that is fine. Being forced into it is unfun.

Likewise, Overdrive is near-useless with this variant, unless you've already got at least three *other* cards in hand at the start of your turn. Given that the only way that Fixer can natively get extra card draws is through Toolbox, you've just made four of the forty cards in his deck be nothing but discard fodder.

I think the focus on equipment is perhaps a poor choice here, anyways; there are plenty of times where, while that Jack Handle might be nice, you'd really rather be getting Driving Mantis or Riveting Crane into play.

As an aside: When you ask for feedback, it's poor form to lash out at the first person to speak up about not being sure how it's supposed to work. Alexa offered perfectly reasonable comments given that drawing extra cards isn't normally something that Fixer needs to do in order to keep himself going (DW Fixer being capable and sometimes even encouraged to knock things off of allies instead of himself), offered valuable suggestions (especially re: Overdrive), and you acted like she ran over your puppy.
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Michael Hunter
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Overall seems interesting - certainly more powerful than regular Fixer, although I would agree with you that normal Fixer could use a bit of a buff.

The infinite Grease Gun is a a major problem as Alexa rightly points out. You could potentially change the search to a Style instead of an equipment, but personally I think the tools are a more interesting choice (Especially as Crane and Tiger do much the same thing). You could make it search for a tool rather than an equipment, but then you can't get Tool Box, which he needs to keep up his hand size.

Without access to Tool Box it does seem like he would inevitably run out of cards. Sure, you can play the same toolbox forever, but if he doesn't draw one of the 2 in his deck he might have a sad game, getting to 1 card and being unable to use his base power and thus do... anything, really. Possibly the ability could be "an equipment card other than Grease Gun", but that is kind of clunky.

Another thing to consider is that searching the deck every single turn (for two cards, no less) can get a bit dull when you're doing it that often - searching really slows the game down. I suspect often I'll like whatever tool I have in play and just want any old random tool as the search (mostly to discard to Timed Strike next turn), making it particularly anticlimactic. To be fair, there'll often be a charge in the trash for me to find, but still.

To the other point: While Alexa didn't pick up that Timed Strike could effectively be 2 damage, you were a bit abrupt in return. And by the same token, you didn't pick up that finding Grease Gun every turn would result in the easiest game of all time, so perhaps some perspective is in order

Tactical hint, if you want to add emphasis to certain words, bolding seems less aggressive than CAPITALS.
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Christopher Webb
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Adelphophage wrote:
Overall seems interesting - certainly more powerful than regular Fixer, although I would agree with you that normal Fixer could use a bit of a buff.

The infinite Grease Gun is a a major problem as Alexa rightly points out. You could potentially change the search to a Style instead of an equipment, but personally I think the tools are a more interesting choice (Especially as Crane and Tiger do much the same thing). You could make it search for a tool rather than an equipment, but then you can't get Tool Box, which he needs to keep up his hand size.

Without access to Tool Box it does seem like he would inevitably run out of cards. Sure, you can play the same toolbox forever, but if he doesn't draw one of the 2 in his deck he might have a sad game, getting to 1 card and being unable to use his base power and thus do... anything, really. Possibly the ability could be "an equipment card other than Grease Gun", but that is kind of clunky.

Another thing to consider is that searching the deck every single turn (for two cards, no less) can get a bit dull when you're doing it that often - searching really slows the game down. I suspect often I'll like whatever tool I have in play and just want any old random tool as the search (mostly to discard to Timed Strike next turn), making it particularly anticlimactic. To be fair, there'll often be a charge in the trash for me to find, but still.

To the other point: While Alexa didn't pick up that Timed Strike could effectively be 2 damage, you were a bit abrupt in return. And by the same token, you didn't pick up that finding Grease Gun every turn would result in the easiest game of all time, so perhaps some perspective is in order

Tactical hint, if you want to add emphasis to certain words, bolding seems less aggressive than CAPITALS.


Fair enough.


A to infinite grease gun problem, a possible solution.

Reword the power to:
Discard 2 cards. If you did, search your deck for an equipment card and your deck or trash for a copy of charge. Put one into play and the other in hand. Shuffle your deck.

A bit more wordy but still within limits I believe. As for lots of shuffling, F5 AZ does this a well. Considering that this variant is inspired by the former, this isn't something I consider a flaw of the variant. But the source material.

 
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J Sinnett
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Rosgath wrote:
As for lots of shuffling, F5 AZ does this a well. Considering that this variant is inspired by the former, this isn't something I consider a flaw of the variant. But the source material.



There's a key difference you're overlooking in that statement, though:

AZ has other powers in his deck. He's not using his search power every single turn.


As for your new version, what happens when the equipment inevitably runs out in the deck? Now we're discarding two cards to pull one card from trash that is immediately forced into play.
 
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P.D. Magnus
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Alexa_Elvrayen wrote:
He can only pull the toolbox so many times, with his power. Unless you're destroying it somehow - and I can only think of two heroes can do this, and it's not consistent - eventually they all end up in your hand.


Not necessarily, because Toolbox could be one of the cards you discard.

Which suggests that the fix for infinite Grease Gun shouldn't be to make the equipment from the deck only. It's not pretty, but you could just make it "an equipment card which is not Grease Gun" or "Toolbox or a Tool card".
 
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Christopher Webb
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pmagnus wrote:
Alexa_Elvrayen wrote:
He can only pull the toolbox so many times, with his power. Unless you're destroying it somehow - and I can only think of two heroes can do this, and it's not consistent - eventually they all end up in your hand.


Not necessarily, because Toolbox could be one of the cards you discard.

Which suggests that the fix for infinite Grease Gun shouldn't be to make the equipment from the deck only. It's not pretty, but you could just make it "an equipment card which is not Grease Gun" or "Toolbox or a Tool card".


Toolbox or a Tool card seems a much cleaner and thematic approach. This way he's waiting to hit something in favor of getting searching for a tool in one way or another.
 
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Tyler Gillen
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I tried a similar idea a long time ago. It was:

Discard a card, if you do search your deck or trash for Charge or a style and put it into your hand.

This got him a style if he needed it or an attack for next turn. The idea behind putting it into your hand instead of into play was so that it wasn't just an attack for 2 every turn.

I think this idea is pretty good as long as the infinite grease gun can be neatly avoided.

As far as Overdrive being trash, I don't see why. If you have a meaty hand you could easily set up a tool that you want and then charge (plus have a charge in hand for later) or charge twice keeping some tools for later. Don't have a meaty hand? then put a Charge into your hand and a toolbox into play on the first one, then you have cards to discard for the second use. End result is you get to charge, get a tool you want, and cycle two cards from your deck. Seems pretty good to me.
 
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J Sinnett
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Sefirit wrote:
As far as Overdrive being trash, I don't see why. If you have a meaty hand you could easily set up a tool that you want and then charge (plus have a charge in hand for later) or charge twice keeping some tools for later. Don't have a meaty hand? then put a Charge into your hand and a toolbox into play on the first one, then you have cards to discard for the second use. End result is you get to charge, get a tool you want, and cycle two cards from your deck. Seems pretty good to me.


The problem that arises is that if the Toolboxes are both already in your hand, you can't put them into play with Timely Strike. As written, it can only play cards that it has pulled from the deck or trash, and that precludes anything that's in your hand already from coming into play.

Not to mention that the biggest issue with this is still that the two-card discard is *required*. In a deck with no other powers available, that locks down Fixer's entire turn if the villain or environment cause his hand to get nuked.

Again, *choosing* to skip your play and power to get an extra draw is fine when it's the tactically-appropriate move. Being *forced* to skip your play and power to get an extra draw is completely unfun.

As such, here's my suggestion:

Quote:
Timely Strike: You may discard one card. If you do, search your deck for a Tool or Style and put it into play. You may put a copy of Charge from your discard pile into play.


This has five main benefits to it, as I see things.
1) By reducing the discard to 1, this power is much easier to use if the hand has been nuked, as it only requires either a toolbox already in play or a single out-of-turn draw.
2) By limiting the search to Tools and Styles, Grease Gun is completely inaccessible, thus preventing the infinite combo. This has the side effect of locking out Toolbox as well, but with only one discard required, it's not nearly as focused.
3) The discard is no longer required; you merely gain an extra benefit by doing so. This removes the Toolbox-focus requirement entirely.
4) So long as a copy of Charge has made it to the discard, the power is usable on turns where Fixer's hand was nuked and he didn't manage to get a Toolbox into play on the previous turn. If not, then he's still waiting for the right time to unleash himself.
5) Overdrive is no longer nerfed into near-uselessness, as the discard cost is no longer mandatory, and all it needs is a single Charge in the discard.
 
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Stefan
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Hey, I like where you are going with this. Searching for equipment at any time gets rid of Fixers biggest weakness and makes him really flexible. But I was wondering what the benefit of dealing with Charge is actually?


4) So long as a copy of Charge has made it to the discard, the power is usable on turns where Fixer's hand was nuked and he didn't manage to get a Toolbox into play on the previous turn. If not, then he's still waiting for the right time to unleash himself.

This doesn't seem like a real benefit to me. In fact, it could make Fixer useless in the early game, since there are only 3 copies of charge in his deck and he now has no guaranteed way of dealing damage. Why don't just make it:

Timely Strike: You may discard a card. If you do, search your deck for a tool, put it into play and shuffle your deck. Mr. Fixer deals 1 target 1 melee damage.

And I think only searching for tools is just enough. Meditate is for style searching, which would be redundant otherwise. This power would just let him swap a card in his hand for a tool in play. That's already pretty powerful and of course way better than normal Fixer. But I guess that is the whole purpose of this thread anyway

 
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Tyler Gillen
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Quote:
The problem that arises is that if the Toolboxes are both already in your hand, you can't put them into play with Timely Strike. As written, it can only play cards that it has pulled from the deck or trash, and that precludes anything that's in your hand already from coming into play.


If they are both in your hand you can discard them for the power, then just grab one as it is now in the trash (if you want).

Quote:
Not to mention that the biggest issue with this is still that the two-card discard is *required*. In a deck with no other powers available, that locks down Fixer's entire turn if the villain or environment cause his hand to get nuked.


Ok, that's fair although in my experience it is somewhat rare. What if the "if you do" part was removed. Then you would need to discard 2 cards if you had them and as many as you could if you had fewer than 2, but would still be able to do the rest of the power either way.
 
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Tyler Gillen
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HikariStarshine wrote:

As such, here's my suggestion:

Timely Strike: You may discard one card. If you do, search your deck for a Tool or Style and put it into play. You may put a copy of Charge from your discard pile into play.


This seems very very strong if you have a Charge in your discard since it basically allows you to search for any tool or style, put it immediately into play and then attack for 2. Every turn you can choose what your most wanted style/tool is just before the Charge comes into play.

It also makes it so that Fixer can't attack at all until you can either play a Charge or have one in your discard.

A large part of the game will depend on when you see Charge for the first time. Although you can speed up you likeliness of getting it by making sure to get a style or tool our of your deck every turn (via the search).
 
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Christopher Webb
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Sefirit wrote:
Quote:
The problem that arises is that if the Toolboxes are both already in your hand, you can't put them into play with Timely Strike. As written, it can only play cards that it has pulled from the deck or trash, and that precludes anything that's in your hand already from coming into play.


If they are both in your hand you can discard them for the power, then just grab one as it is now in the trash (if you want).

Quote:
Not to mention that the biggest issue with this is still that the two-card discard is *required*. In a deck with no other powers available, that locks down Fixer's entire turn if the villain or environment cause his hand to get nuked.


Ok, that's fair although in my experience it is somewhat rare. What if the "if you do" part was removed. Then you would need to discard 2 cards if you had them and as many as you could if you had fewer than 2, but would still be able to do the rest of the power either way.


My concern here is that this makes the power stronger when he had no cards in hand, but I suppose if you are in a situation like that with fixer, more power isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Also, he pulls a charge out to show that he is actually preparing a strike, not just looking for things. Having a charge pulled makes it so the power will eventually result in 2 damage.

One thing that I'd like to bring up too. Most people here are concerned that getting his hand wiped leaves him with nothing to do. While this is a legitimate concern, both variants of Unity suffer much more severely from the above. Admittedly, she can have things in play that will still act, but this version of fixer only can't act for 1 turn if his hand is wiped. Maximum. (Draw 2 cards, use power to pull toolbox from anywhere and build up hand a bit by next turn) he recovers very quickly really.

This is assuming he can pull tools or a toolbox and a charge.

A for being able to grab styles as well, I feel this would lead to a very boring play style. He would always have all of his build up at hand. It's not a bad idea, but perhaps just too strong.
 
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J Sinnett
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If Unity has cards in play, she still likely has *something* happen on her turn. Yes, all of her powers rely on her having cards in hand, but most of her 'bots do something at the end of her turn.

Fixer has nothing like that at all.

Remember, we're not just looking at 'Can you use the base power when your hand is wiped', we're looking at the entire deck as it interacts with the base power. When the base power is the only power you will ever have (short of CapCos dropping a Cosmic Weapon on you), and nothing in your deck does anything outside of the Play and Power phases, then having the base power rely on having enough cards in hand to fuel it is a very dangerous direction to go in. That's the issue we're working against, here. Not whether another deck can do anything, but whether *this* deck, that we're trying to fix a problem with, will work better with this power.

Another try from me, then:

Quote:
Timely Strike: You may discard 1 card. If you do, search your deck for a Tool or Style and put it into play. You may search your deck or trash for a copy of Charge and put it into play. If you do, destroy 1 Tool or Style. If you searched your deck this turn, shuffle it.


Does that seem more workable?
 
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