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What important similarities and differences do you see?
Please try to contribute an equal number of each.
 
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Paging German_historian_dude...
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Koldfoot wrote:
Well.

Jews were being persecuted in Russia, by Britain in the Middle East, throughout Eastern Europe, and living relatively well in Muslim countries.

Today Muslims are persecuting Muslims around the world, and the west is accepting them in such numbers that the shear volume has become a concern.

He specified European jews in the 30's, but he didn't specify a region for contemporary muslims so you're ok there.
 
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Paging German_historian_dude...

The understandings that people have created from their exposure to histories and medias, channelled by their emotional biases and conceptual frameworks, are also sought.
 
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David Dearlove
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Koldfoot wrote:
Well.

Jews were being persecuted in Russia, by Britain in the Middle East, throughout Eastern Europe, and living relatively well in Muslim countries.

Today Muslims are persecuting Muslims around the world, and the west is accepting them in such numbers that the shear volume has become a concern.

Well Britain wasn't persecuting Jews in the middle east in any systematic way. It was preventing European Jews from going there, which turned out to have tragic consequences to them. Singling out Russia in the 1930s is absurd. Poland? Hungary? Austria? And of course Germany.
 
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I don't understand what you have in mind to ask the question.
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The biggest similarity I see today us that Jews in the 20s and 30s were seen by antisemites as not just different, but both antithetical to 'modern' culture, but also complete unassimilatable. They were held responsible for the worst excesses of Capitalism, and the revolutionary threat of Communism. And because of thier tradition of maintaining thier culture and language throughout the Diaspora, Jews were seen as an unconvertible 'other' who was out to interbreed with Christians and destroy governments and cultures they they were accussed of despising.

Muslims today are seen in much the same light. And to those who would argue 'well, Muslims today are terrorists' ignores the reality that Jews, in the Mandate of Palestine, were also accussed of terrorism, of Zionist organizations being 'fronts' for terrorism in much the same way that the Muslim Brotherhood is tarred with the huge brush of sanctioning terror.

The reality is more complicated- a lot nore nuanced. But yesterdays antisemites and todays Islamaphobes are very similar in thier desire to blame a marginalized 'other' for thier problems, and to hold up an idealized unity along ethno-cultural lines as the panacea to the modern condition. Thus, the more fear they can stoke, the easier the case to make that the solution is to ensure the survival of One People, Under (a Christian) God (led by a strong President)- or Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuehrer.

How quickly we forget.

Darilian
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Koldfoot wrote:
Jews were being persecuted in Russia, [...]


Not really any more than any other group at that time. It was the late 1940s, not the 1930s, that saw the Soviet Union adopt an antisemitic course. The group really facing persecution in the 1930s were Poles, about 300,000 of whom were murdered in the NKVD's Polish operation.
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For German speakers, a good text on the similarities and differences between antisemitism and Islamophobia.
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I don't understand what you have in mind to ask the question.
I think he has cultural relativism in mind. I don't wish to waste my time with such a vacuous question except to say that the Jews didn't actually burn down the Reichstag in 1932/33: this was a Hitlerean conspiracy. But a muslim group actually did fry the twin towers and Pentagon in 2001. I also don't believe there was a Jewish ISIS, Burka al-Harem, Hezbollah, Hamas, Fatah, Al Qaeda, Jamah Islamia and whatever else these guys have on the boil today. And Jews didn't kill 500 Western Europeans within the space of 18 months during the early 30s either.
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Odiousmaximus wrote:
Quote:
I don't understand what you have in mind to ask the question.
I think he has cultural relativism in mind. I don't wish to waste my time with such a vacuous question except to say that the Jews didn't actually burn down the Reichstag in 1932/33: this was a Hitlerean conspiracy. But a muslim group actually did fry the twin towers and Pentagon in 2001. I also don't believe there was a Jewish ISIS, Burka al-Harem, Hezbollah, Hamas, Fatah, Al Qaeda, Jamah Islamia and whatever else these guys have on the boil today. And Jews didn't kill 500 Western Europeans within the space of 18 months during the early 30s either.

So all muslims are the same. You are heading into big red X territory. It doesn't look like you will be missed either.
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Hang on, I just listed some extreme organisations run by muslims and puporting to represent Islam, and I alluded to the recent European attacks. Not only are they all varifiable facts, but I never said 'all muslims are the same' - you did. If it appears that I meant that, this is purely the result of the number of extreme organisation run by those puporting to represent Islam around the world.
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Odiousmaximus wrote:
Quote:
I don't understand what you have in mind to ask the question.
I think he has cultural relativism in mind. I don't wish to waste my time with such a vacuous question except to say that the Jews didn't actually burn down the Reichstag in 1932/33: this was a Hitlerean conspiracy. But a muslim group actually did fry the twin towers and Pentagon in 2001. I also don't believe there was a Jewish ISIS, Burka al-Harem, Hezbollah, Hamas, Fatah, Al Qaeda, Jamah Islamia and whatever else these guys have on the boil today. And Jews didn't kill 500 Western Europeans within the space of 18 months during the early 30s either.

But a Jewish terror group did blow up a hotel in Cairo to kill a high UN diplomat. A Jewish terror group did murder hundreds of civilians in a refugee camp. Admittedly, Jewish terror groups are small and few compared to those who claim allegiance to Islam, but there are more than a billion Muslims on this planet. Doubt the number of Jews would exceed 50 million.

But it appears you are tarring an entire religion, the vast majority of whom aren't Arabic or African, with the activities of criminal murderers in those regions, while (rightly) refusing to do the same for Jewish people.

While both groups face prejudice and intolerance, only the Jews in the 1930s faced an organized, modern industrialized state that was committed to their extermination. The Muslims, for all the issues they might face, have nothing similar confronting them, not even remotely.
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I don't think that the leader of any country has called for stripping Muslim citizens of their property, removing their right to work or putting them to death/slave labor, yet. (At least not based on their heritage, there are plenty doing some of these to specific [other] political factions of Muslims.)

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Thank you for a reasonable reply.

Well, firstly I was not singling out any race of muslim extremist or extreme organisation. I covered Asia, the Middle East and Africa.

Secondly, no I didnt mention the Jews at all and you are correct that there had been Jewish terrorism during the pre-Israel days. Some say they invented the car bomb. I must also add that I have little patience with Zionism and all that old Testament stuff. However, as you agree, the scale of Islamic extremism outstrips all this, and the state of it today is the product of trends that developed during the 70s. The historian Eric Hobsbawm, writing in the 90s, regarded the Iranian revolution of 1979 as the bookending of the French and America revolutions in that it was the first revolution to actually go backwards rather than 'forwards'. In light of the 'caliphates' or attempted Caliphates that have sprung up since then the old guy may well be right. Even Turkey, which was the vaunted democratic, secular muslim-majority country is veering into strong man territory.

In short, no, I dont think there is any direct correlation between Jews in the 30s and Muslims today. It simply isnt relative as I see it.
 
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Odiousmaximus wrote:
Quote:
I don't understand what you have in mind to ask the question.
I think he has cultural relativism in mind. I don't wish to waste my time with such a vacuous question [...]


Wer lesen kann, ist im Vorteil, as they say in Germany:

Pinook wrote:
What important similarities and differences do you see?
Please try to contribute an equal number of each.
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Quote:
Wer lesen kann, ist im Vorteil, as they say in Germany:
You're saying that I can't read. And you're saying it in German to show off your chops; and you have cyrillic in your username. I guess I'm out gunned, out-smugged and out of luck. Not even my Hobsbawm quote can redeem me here.

I'd tell you that I didnt include an equal number of Muslim and Jewish examples because I dont see any "important similarities" (and hence my vacuous relativism comment), but instead I will demonstrate the appropriate obsequiousness to a man of your calibre and bow my head.
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Darilian wrote:
The biggest similarity I see today us that Jews in the 20s and 30s were seen by antisemites as not just different, but both antithetical to 'modern' culture, but also complete unassimilatable. They were held responsible for the worst excesses of Capitalism, and the revolutionary threat of Communism. And because of thier tradition of maintaining thier culture and language throughout the Diaspora, Jews were seen as an unconvertible 'other' who was out to interbreed with Christians and destroy governments and cultures they they were accussed of despising.

Muslims today are seen in much the same light. And to those who would argue 'well, Muslims today are terrorists' ignores the reality that Jews, in the Mandate of Palestine, were also accussed of terrorism, of Zionist organizations being 'fronts' for terrorism in much the same way that the Muslim Brotherhood is tarred with the huge brush of sanctioning terror.

The reality is more complicated- a lot nore nuanced. But yesterdays antisemites and todays Islamaphobes are very similar in thier desire to blame a marginalized 'other' for thier problems, and to hold up an idealized unity along ethno-cultural lines as the panacea to the modern condition. Thus, the more fear they can stoke, the easier the case to make that the solution is to ensure the survival of One People, Under (a Christian) God (led by a strong President)- or Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuehrer.

How quickly we forget.

Darilian


Were there large factions of Jews, numbering in the millions, that swore to destabilize western culture and destroy an entire nation of gentiles from off the map? Was there an unending string of Jews whose goal it was to murder as many gentiles as possible in the name of G-d?

I feel like you're trying too hard to equivocate the two groups. The situation is different. Very different. For example, I don't think white Christians would be up in arms about Muslims if not for the terror attacks. Attacks that have actually happened.

I'm not saying hating Muslims is the correct response to a minority faction of them doing something despicable. But I think prior to 9/11 there were far fewer hate crimes and such against them. The hate crimes started after the terrorism. I'm not sure you can say the same for the Jews in the 1930's. They were more of a convenient scapegoat to a problem that existed independent of their actions.
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Odiousmaximus wrote:
Thank you for a reasonable reply.

Well, firstly I was not singling out any race of muslim extremist or extreme organisation. I covered Asia, the Middle East and Africa.

Secondly, no I didnt mention the Jews at all and you are correct that there had been Jewish terrorism during the pre-Israel days. Some say they invented the car bomb. I must also add that I have little patience with Zionism and all that old Testament stuff. However, as you agree, the scale of Islamic extremism outstrips all this, and the state of it today is the product of trends that developed during the 70s. The historian Eric Hobsbawm, writing in the 90s, regarded the Iranian revolution of 1979 as the bookending of the French and America revolutions in that it was the first revolution to actually go backwards rather than 'forwards'. In light of the 'caliphates' or attempted Caliphates that have sprung up since then the old guy may well be right. Even Turkey, which was the vaunted democratic, secular muslim-majority country is veering into strong man territory.

In short, no, I dont think there is any direct correlation between Jews in the 30s and Muslims today. It simply isnt relative as I see it.

What is happening right now is the Islamic equivalent of the 30 Years War. And because it's happening across a bunch of former European colonies / client states, the West is mixed up in it. You mention the 1979 Iranian revolution as a point where it all went wrong, but I would say it was the CIA coup in 1953 (without which there would not have been a revolution, I reckon).

It's complicated because the West keeps getting involved, which basically creates more ill will and terrorists. There's the Iranian coup and subsequent revolution, there's US support for hardline Zionism, etc (sorry Moshe). On top of that Obama replaced a bunch of stable kleptocrats with unhinged jihadist nutters by providing air support for the Arab Spring. There's the drone attacks in Pakistan, and so on and so on. So it's not like Islamic terrorists just came out of nowhere and they are suicide bombing because they are bored or 'they hate our freedoms' or whatever.

The thing that frustrates me is that the anti-Muslim crowd want to take it out on the citizens and refugees rather than the terrorists. Which would be like a Pakistani blaming you or me for Obama drone striking his daughter's wedding. I am a white guy, but I didn't do it and don't deserve to be persecuted for it. There are also brown guys who are not terrorists and don't deserve to be persecuted for it. You're Australian, so you probably work with a bunch of Muslims -- what do you think of them? Are they just regular human beings?

To summarise: the difference between Jews then and Muslims now is that there is a sectarian war on in the middle east, and we've been involved in it for decades. The similarity is that the innocent are being scapegoated and persecuted.

Some other stuff. Turkey changing I see as the result of three things. Firstly the Arab spring, secondly a loss of faith in the army, and thirdly a backlash against Kemal's reforms that has been building for a long time. Some of his reforms were positive (now women can go to uni!) and some were dodgy (women can't wear a hijab at uni!) and some were repressive (Dervishes can't go to uni at all!). It was a bit slash and burn.

Muslims in Asia are generally pretty peaceful. Jemaah Islamiyah is a sort of vestige of the colonial resistance, a bit like ETA after Franco. I think they really only keep going because Australia keeps tinkering, with East Timor and the recent spying debacle being some examples. Outside of Indonesia and Malaysia, Muslims tend to be pluralistic or persecuted. So I wouldn't lump them in with the middle eastern jihadists.

I am not really sure what's going on in Africa. My first thought is that it is Balkanising and sectarianism is part of that. Certainly Boko Haram (not "Burka al-Harem" ) is part of that, looking for a return to pre-colonial rule, on the basis that the Brits left everyone super poor compared to the good old days of the sultan. You will note that they target other Muslims.
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I appreciate the extensive and thoughtful reply . Clearly there are many factors contributing to this large scale geopolitical phenomenon, not least the Western interest in oil, the related invasion of Iraq and indeed the USSR's invasion of Afghanistan as well as the US's support for Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States. The latter is a snake pit in itself. However, it is important to keep in mind that tribal sectarianism has long and traditionally existed in the Arab world.

As to Iran, Hobsbawm claims that after a decade of disasterous agricultural reforms by the Shah, the final straw that tipped the revolution into action was the Shah's attempt to liberalise education for women. I dispute the the '53 coup, as ethically revolting as it was (and it was) had a direct connection to the 1979 revolution. I'd say the main cause were the more recent and by then more real reforms. The 53 coup would make people angry at America, but I dont see how it would make people angry at women's education. I believe a more visceral and atavistic urge caused that, in combination with all important and real anger at economic disaster. I recall chatting to an academic back at university in the mid 2000s who emphasised that both the West (with the rise of the christian right and NRA in the States) and the Muslim world had progressively become more conservative in the last 30 years. And I would contextualise the Iran revolution as part of that trend.

Other examples of the time would be the Lebanese civil war starting in 1975. Lebanon then was a reasonably prosperous country, and Beiruit regarded as the Venice of the East until religious differences boiled over and it was all thrown down the drain. Since this time there have been attempted and successful Islamist revolutions in many places, such as Afghanistan, Somalia, Pakistan, Mali, Nigeria. These decades ought to be contrasted with those before the 1970s, when a secular leader led Egypt (Nasser: his funeral in '70 was attented by thousands of Egyptian women in western clothes), when the secular but authoratively socialist Baathist movement gained traction in Iraq and Syria based on Pan-Arabianism rather than Islam, and when Palestine was led by the secular PLO. Black September, while a militarist terror group, were also essentially political: when they struck Munich in '72 they actually had an escape plan; they weren't after paradise, but a tactical target. These differ from Hamas, Fatah and Al Qaeda markedly. Also, the Libyan revolution in '69 was led by the ostensibly secular and socialist colonel Gaddafi.

The Arab Spring was clearly a decisive moment in the modern history of the Middle East and North Africa,the full impact I am unable to grasp right now. But it led to, inter alia, the Muslim Brotherhod in Egypt and Isis in the vacuum of Iraq and Syria. My late mother's catholic priest was Egyptian and he said back in 2013 that he skyped every night with his old parish in Cairo, and basically the christians were scared to go to church and the women had to wear hijabs outside to avoid god knows what.

In brief, what you say about the average muslim in the street is correct. I believe the majority of human beings are decent individuals who treat other individuals face to face with cordial respect. Indeed many of the anti-muslim crowd were probably waiting for a chance to hate. On the other hand, I strongly believe that it is not ALL due to whiplash Islamophobia. If it were it would have all surfaced back in 2001 after the WTC, but it didnt. If that happened today, I can easily imagine great anger in the streets of Western cities, more support for the 'True Blue Crew' etc. But back then there was considerable opinion that US foreign policy had caused the attack, considerabe consternation about even the invasion of Afghanistan and criticism of Dubya using the word 'crusade' and saying that youre either with us or against us. Things have changed in the meantime: the Arab Spring, ISIS, the French attacks on purely civilian targets (7/7 and the Madrd bombing too?), as well as events like the 2012 protest against blasphemy on Sydney's streets. I wouldnt have predicted that even five years before.

And this brings me to my ultimate point, which is all to do with socio-political values and rights and open, civil society, and nothing to do with race (which is of course cosmetic - we all bleed the same blood). Terror attacks are crimes against humanity and wanting to make blasphemy a captial crime, as well as keeping child brides and wanting a theocracy, to me are noting more than social regressions that should be confronted by educated people. Failing this, then educated folks should at least distance themselves from it.
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Odiousmaximus wrote:
I'd tell you that I didnt include an equal number of Muslim and Jewish examples because I dont see any "important similarities"


I wasn't asking you to name similarities. I higlighted the word differences to point out that Pinook was asking for similarities and differences between the two situations---meaning it was hardly an act of cultural relativism.
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Odiousmaximus wrote:
The 53 coup would make people angry at America, but I dont see how it would make people angry at women's education.


When you have state police pulling the hijab off women, then one can see how the good stuff (women's education) gets tainted by the bad stuff (authoritarianism).

Odiousmaximus wrote:
Terror attacks are crimes against humanity and wanting to make blasphemy a captial crime, as well as keeping child brides and wanting a theocracy, to me are noting more than social regressions that should be confronted by educated people. Failing this, then educated folks should at least distance themselves from it.


Terror attacks, execution for blasphemy, child brides and theocracy are awful.

Distance achieved.
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DavidDearlove wrote:
Odiousmaximus wrote:
Quote:
I don't understand what you have in mind to ask the question.
I think he has cultural relativism in mind. I don't wish to waste my time with such a vacuous question except to say that the Jews didn't actually burn down the Reichstag in 1932/33: this was a Hitlerean conspiracy. But a muslim group actually did fry the twin towers and Pentagon in 2001. I also don't believe there was a Jewish ISIS, Burka al-Harem, Hezbollah, Hamas, Fatah, Al Qaeda, Jamah Islamia and whatever else these guys have on the boil today. And Jews didn't kill 500 Western Europeans within the space of 18 months during the early 30s either.

So all muslims are the same. You are heading into big red X territory. It doesn't look like you will be missed either.

So it sems I misjudged you. Apologies. Your longer posts are rather more nuanced.
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Apology accepted good sir . I expected more from you back there from your other posts I'd read, but I am sometimes arrogant in my invective and this can come across badly. Sorry about that!
 
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Quote:
Odiousmaximus wrote:

I'd tell you that I didnt include an equal number of Muslim and Jewish examples because I dont see any "important similarities"


I wasn't asking you to name similarities. I higlighted the word differences to point out that Pinook was asking for similarities and differences between the two situations---meaning it was hardly an act of cultural relativism.
Fair point indeed. Apologies.
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