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Subject: Ranged single-target monster focus and movement examples rss

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GAF Blizzard
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I made some mistakes with ranged focus in my first game. Isaac and other helpful people have helped me understand how things work. Thanks!

There have been several threads talking about this sort of thing with lots of comments, so I'm trying to build a set of 100% correct examples with rules/FAQ/post citations along the way in the hopes that it helps other players.

Assume each archer is base Move 2, base Range 3. Assume the archer ability card is Move +0, Attack +0.


1.

In this case, each archer in turn will focus the "closest" enemy e.g. the enemy that can be targeted by moving the least amount of spaces (page 29). Each archer will then move so that it can perform its best possible attack. In this case there is no disadvantage, and the player is in range, so both archers will sit still and shoot the player.


2.

In this case, each archer in turn will find a focus tie because the summon and player A both require 0 movement to attack. This tie will be broken by proximity (lowest hex distance not through walls) per the FAQ, then by initiative order (page 29). The summon wins the proximity tiebreaker, so both archers will sit still and attack the summon.

3.

As in case 2, each archer in turn will find a focus tie and break it on the summon, which requires 0 movement to attack. However, each archer will move a minimum number of spaces to avoid disadvantage (page 30).

3a. If the top archer acts first, it will move west and attack the summon. The bottom archer will then move southwest and do the same.

3b. If the bottom archer acts first, it could move either northwest or southwest, player's choice (page 32). If players choose to move it southwest, the result is the same as case 3a. If players choose to move it northwest, it will attack the summon from there. The second archer will then move 2 hexes east or 2 hexes southwest (player's choice) and attack the summon from there.


4.

Both targets are in range, so the archer has a focus tie with minimum movement of 0 (page 29). Per the FAQ, proximity is checked next, not through walls, to break the tie. (The result is the same as the initiative tiebreaker but this does not matter, as will be shown in case 5). The result is that the archer focuses the summon and moves 2 hexes east to attack it, avoiding disadvantage.


5.

This is the same as case 4, except the proximity tiebreaker focuses the player. Note that the summon has lower initiative and is in range with no disadvantage, but the monster ignores this! Instead, the monster moves 2 hexes east and attacks the player, avoiding disadvantage.


6.

This is the same as case 5, but the archer cannot avoid disadvantage. Again, note that the summon has lower initiative and is in range with no disadvantage, but the monster ignores this! The same sequence of events as case 5 occurs due to tiebreaker order. After finding focus, the archer moves 0 hexes, the minimum to be in range of the player, and attacks the player at a disadvantage.


7.

This demonstrates the initiative tiebreaker. The archer has two enemies within range by moving 0, so it starts the tiebreaker process. First, proximity is checked (per the FAQ), but this still results in a tie. The next tiebreaker is initiative order (per the FAQ and page 29). The summon acts earlier, so the archer will focus it. The archer can attack without disadvantage, so it sits still (minimum movement, page 30) and attacks the summon.


8.

Focus is easy here. The archer is in range of only 1 enemy and does not have to move to be in range, so it focuses the player. With 2 movement, the archer moves 2 hexes east to avoid disadvantage. It then attacks the player because monsters always attack their focus (page 31), even though there is now a lower-initiative, non-disadvantaged target the same distance away.


9.

Focus is again easy here. For movement, the archer won't even try to start moving toward some distant hex where it might get a better shot in the future. Instead, it will stand still and attack with disadvantage because it can't avoid disadvantage this turn. I PM'd Isaac and got confirmation, so this answer is official: In case 9, the archer would stay put. Once a focus is found and in range, monsters move to maximize their current attack, not their future attack. If they can't lose disadvantage, they won't move.


10.

The archer is not performing an attack because it is disarmed. Because of this, even though the archer is a Ranged unit per its stat card, the FAQ indicates it acts as Melee for focus ("pretend as if it is performing a melee attack (i.e. it wants to be adjacent to an enemy)"). This means it will move into melee range of the player and stop there (east + southeast, southeast + east, or southeast + southeast).
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Ben Greig
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Re: Ranged single-target monster movement
Yep your examples are 100% correct
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Re: Ranged single-target monster movement
I'm no expert but my thoughts (I'm presuming archers range attack is 3?):

1. Yes

2. I think they will attack the summons because it is the closest enemy - nothing to do with initiative. No you're right I'm wrong both are closest due to range - stupid me

3a. Yes

3b. Wouldn't the second archer would move 2 east or southwest and attack summons (if still alive)
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Daniel Berg
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Re: Ranged single-target monster movement
GAFBlizzard wrote:
3b. If the bottom archer acts first, it could move either northwest or southwest, player's choice (page 32). If players choose to move it northwest, it will attack the summon and the second archer will be forced to sit still and attack at a disadvantage.

Looks fine to me, but in case 3b the top archer could still move two spaces to the east (or southwest) to attack without disadvantage.
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Re: Ranged single-target monster movement
Ibbo wrote:
2. I think they will attack the summons because it is the closest enemy - nothing to do with initiative. No you're right I'm wrong both are closest due to range - stupid me


Actually I think you are correct - physical proximity is still earlier in the order of tie-breakers than initiative. Both would lead to the same result, however
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GAF Blizzard
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Re: Ranged single-target monster movement
Sorry, both of you are correct. I edited the movement in late and was originally thinking of Move base 1.

Does 3b look good in the OP now?
 
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Re: Ranged single-target monster movement
GAFBlizzard wrote:
Sorry, both of you are correct. I edited the movement in late and was originally thinking of Move base 1.

Does 3b look good in the OP now?


Yes, except southwest could still be an option for second archer, if the first moved northwest.
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Re: Ranged single-target monster movement
Garou wrote:
Ibbo wrote:
2. I think they will attack the summons because it is the closest enemy - nothing to do with initiative. No you're right I'm wrong both are closest due to range - stupid me


Actually I think you are correct - physical proximity is still earlier in the order of tie-breakers than initiative. Both would lead to the same result, however


Yes, you're right - I'm not so stupid after all:

FAQ wrote:
In the case where the monster can move the same number of spaces to get within range (and line-of-sight) of multiple enemies (either because it starts its turn within range or multiple enemies or through some other situation), proximity (i.e. number of hexes they are away, not counting through walls) is then checked as a tie-breaker for "closest."
 
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Re: Ranged single-target monster movement
I edited the OP yet again since I missed the 2 southwest case. This means another player's choice, but I think I have everything correct now. This is why I made the thread, thanks!

Garou wrote:
Ibbo wrote:
2. I think they will attack the summons because it is the closest enemy - nothing to do with initiative. No you're right I'm wrong both are closest due to range - stupid me


Actually I think you are correct - physical proximity is still earlier in the order of tie-breakers than initiative. Both would lead to the same result, however

Good call. The term "proximity" isn't used in the rules at all. It is listed in the FAQ as a clarifying addition to the rules:

In the case where the monster can move the same number of spaces to get within range (and line-of-sight) of multiple enemies (either because it starts its turn within range or multiple enemies or through some other situation), proximity (i.e. number of hexes they are away, not counting through walls) is then checked as a tie-breaker for "closest."
Okay, now, if there is only one closest enemy within range at the end of that path, that is the monster's focus. If there are multiple closest enemies within range (and line-of-sight), the focus is the enemy among those tied who has the lower initiative for the round.


I have added 3 more pictures to the OP to indicate I hopefully understand this now.
 
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Re: Ranged single-target monster movement
GAFBlizzard wrote:
I have added 3 more pictures to the OP to indicate I hopefully understand this now.

You have player and summon swapped in the last picture. Apart from that it looks good (for my reading of the rules).

Edit: Either you fixed it already or I should really check my eyesight...
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Re: Ranged single-target monster movement
Garou wrote:
GAFBlizzard wrote:
I have added 3 more pictures to the OP to indicate I hopefully understand this now.

You have player and summon swapped in the last picture. Apart from that it looks good (for my reading of the rules).

Edit: Either you fixed it already or I should really check my eyesight...

I immediately caught and fixed it. Sorry about all the edits.

I'm glad to see at least a couple of veterans struggling to be 100% accurate, since it makes me feel better trying to perfectly understand the focus and movement system.
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Re: Ranged single-target monster movement
And unless you've changed it, the wording and decisions for #2 should be amended for proximity.
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Re: Ranged single-target monster movement
Ibbo wrote:
And unless you've changed it, the wording and decisions for #2 should be amended for proximity.

I fixed that and added yet another example so the initiative tiebreaker actually gets used for real. laugh

Please tell me that's everything.
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Simon Skov
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Re: Ranged single-target monster movement
Everything looks correct to me. Good job on the thread, I'm sure others will find it very useful.
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Re: Ranged single-target monster movement
GAFBlizzard wrote:
because the rules say "the enemy who is earlier in the initiative order" rather than "the enemy that will take a turn next".

Maybe I am missing something here, but I cannot think of a situation where this distinction would actually make a difference.

Edit: To clarify, this pertains to the situation of chosing focus between a player and its equidistant summon, as there is no opportunity for anything to happen between the action of summon and player.
 
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Re: Ranged single-target monster movement
Garou wrote:
GAFBlizzard wrote:
because the rules say "the enemy who is earlier in the initiative order" rather than "the enemy that will take a turn next".

Maybe I am missing something here, but I cannot think of a situation where this distinction would actually make a difference.

You're right. Unless there's some advanced mechanism to create summons outside your turn, the summon will act next anyway. I'll edit it out unless someone can tell me it exists in a spoiler-free fashion that a fancy mechanism exists.
 
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Re: Ranged single-target monster movement
This was fun, thanks for such a clear thread. I don't know if you want to consider it but would an example showing how an archer moves to avoid disadvantge (or get into range) but despite the movement bringing another target into range without disadvantage and with lower initiative the focus remains on the first target because you always "focus first" be useful?

A . . . .
P . . . .
. S . . .

Archer, Summons, Player?

EDIT = Actually #3 shows this I think?
 
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Re: Ranged single-target monster movement
Ibbo wrote:
This was fun, thanks for such a clear thread. I don't know if you want to consider it but would an example showing how an archer moves to avoid disadvantge (or get into range) but despite the movement bringing another target into range without disadvantage and with lower initiative the focus remains on the first target because you always "focus first" be useful?

A . . . .
P . . . .
. S . . .

Archer, Summons, Player?

EDIT = Actually #3 shows this I think?

I think you would need a Summon initially out of range to do this. I'll add an example tomorrow but I have to sleep now.
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Re: Ranged single-target monster movement
Thanks for posting this and great job! This is the kind of analysis that is necessary to play this (amazing) game correctly, yet some people want to jump on me for saying I find it to be as heavy as the lighter COIN games. The number of posts in the rules forum and FAQ for a game this new certainly supports this position. This doesn't take away from how good the game is, just that many underestimate its complexity and possibly house-rule more than they realize.

I think there should really be a scenario walkthrough illustrated guide included with the next print that illustrates as many of these kinds of examples just as you did.
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Thomas A
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Re: Ranged single-target monster movement
So quick question for ya.
In example 6 in the OP - let's say summons wasn't there but everything else was the same.
If archer had 3 movement, he would focus on player then move 3 to avoid disadvantage... but since he only has 2 movement, does he not move at all? Or does he attempt to get to that space 3 hexes away (but only make it 2 spaces along this path and still attack with disadvantage)?
I'm pretty sure the answer is he DOES NOT MOVE - but just wanted to make sure.
Thanks for posting these, they will be super helpful to new players!
I would love to see something similar for LOS issues...

EDIT: You should rename this something along the lines of finding ranged focus illustrated examples for future searchers!
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Re: Ranged single-target monster movement
magictom1 wrote:

I'm pretty sure the answer is he DOES NOT MOVE - but just wanted to make sure.


Correct, monsters are lazy, only think for the current round and move the least amount possible.
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Justin Boehm
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Re: Ranged single-target monster movement
I like what you tried to accomplish here and maybe I'm missing something, but I don't like your use of the term "focus tie" in examples 2-6. There is no tie, in each the focus is 100% clear as the closest enemy, there's no tie to break, as in each case one enemy is closer than the other. The fact that 2 are in range makes no difference. In 2-4 the focus is the summon because it is closer, and in 5-6 it is the player for the same reason, it doesn't matter that both are within range 3.

#7 is the only one with a tie to break, as both enemies are the same distance away, the other examples have no tie to break, monsters don't use range for focus, they use closest enemy only.

Direct from the rulebook:

The first priority of a monster is to focus on the enemy closest to it.

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Simon Skov
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Re: Ranged single-target monster movement
Any criteria for deciding between multiple eligible targets of focus can be considered a tie-breaker.

Also note that there is a difference between the rules you are quoting, and the tie-breaker used in the above examples. The first priority of a monster is to focus on the enemy closest to it, where closest means the least movement needed to be able to attack the enemy. In all of the above examples this results in a tie - both enemies can be attacked using 0 movement. The next tie is broken by proximity, i.e. which enemy is physically closer.
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R. Eric Reuss
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Re: Ranged single-target monster movement
Very nice!

We could have used this thread the first time or two we dealt with archers; we kept merging "closest = lowest movement required" with "tries to avoid disadvantage", so were using "closest = lowest movement required to get in range without disadvantage", which isn't quite right.
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Re: Ranged single-target monster movement
nom_ wrote:
Any criteria for deciding between multiple eligible targets of focus can be considered a tie-breaker.

Also note that there is a difference between the rules you are quoting, and the tie-breaker used in the above examples. The first priority of a monster is to focus on the enemy closest to it, where closest means the least movement needed to be able to attack the enemy. In all of the above examples this results in a tie - both enemies can be attacked using 0 movement. The next tie is broken by proximity, i.e. which enemy is physically closer.


Ah, I see your point, thanks for the clarification.
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