Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
28 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

Gloomhaven» Forums » Rules

Subject: Monster multi-turn routing rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Tommy Wareing
United Kingdom
Oxford
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
If the monster can't reach a viable hex for combat in a single movement, how does it interact with temporary obstructions (most likely, other monster) on the route?

Let's say you've got two channels to the target, both a single hex wide. Apologies for the bad ASCII art diagram:

. . . . .
. - - .
. X . . T

Out of preference, the monster (X) will move due east to its target (T), requiring 2 move to get within melee range. Its other choice is move up and around the barrier (--), which would actually take move 5:


. 2 3 4 .
1 - - 5
. X 1 2 T

It'll take the longer path if there's a trap, or other impassible terrain. But what if there's a monster in the way?


. . . . .
. - - .
. X . Y T

Does X walk forward, in the hope that Y will be out of the way before it arrives? And if Y is still there, then X simply queues up behind it, unable to get through.

Or does X take the longer way around, immediately committing itself to a longer route? Assuming, it's got move 1, and Y doesn't get out of the way, then X has moved one step along the path of length 5. If Y *does* get out of the way though, then X can reverse direction, but now has to move 3 to get back, which has immediately gained the target an extra turn before X arrives.

We genuinely ran into this situation in the second scenario, where low movement summoned rats had to try to make their way through the party (who might never move), or take the long way around obstacles...
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Corey Mayo
United States
Schertz
TX
flag msg tools
Have you paid your dues, Jack?
badge
Yes sir, the check is in the mail.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I think you're right--it will move 1 space going the long way since that is the clear route.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Simon Skov
Denmark
Copenhagen
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The monster will try to move to a hex from which it can attack the hero. The monster cannot attack the hero from the space where monster Y is currently at, because it is occupied. The monster will instead move towards the hex north-west of the target, since it is the closest such hex. It will try to take the shortest path there, which is two space right and one space norht-east.

If it has move 1, it will move 1 hex to the right.
If it has move 2, it will find it is unable end its movement on top of the other monster, and will move as much as it can - 1 hex to the right.
If it has move 3, it will move all the way to the hex to the north-west of the target.

If instead both Y and T were 1 space further to the west, the only path to a hex from which the monster can attack its target would be around the obstacles, so that is the route it would take.
9 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brent Paschall
United States
Thaxton
Virginia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Enemies can move through each other, they just can't stop in the same spot as their ally.

In the case you provide, if X has 1 movement or 3+ movement, it will move directly towards its target this turn.

So your question is what it will do if it has 2 movement, and using the direct path would force it to stop before using all of its movement.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Byron Campbell
United States
Santa Clarita
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I don't know where everyone is getting the 3+ movement thing from. According to the diagram, there is still no way to get into melee range of the target by moving directly, regardless of how much movement the monster has. I am assuming that everything not shown in the diagram is a wall. In that case, I believe it will take the longer route, even if it "knows" the other monster will soon disappear. Monsters don't plan ahead.

I see now there is another hex. Simon is right.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Justin Boehm
United States
New York
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
nom_ wrote:
The monster will try to move to a hex from which it can attack the hero. The monster cannot attack the hero from the space where monster Y is currently at, because it is occupied. The monster will instead move towards the hex north-west of the target, since it is the closest such hex. It will try to take the shortest path there, which is two space right and one space norht-east.

If it has move 1, it will move 1 hex to the right.
If it has move 2, it will find it is unable end its movement on top of the other monster, and will move as much as it can - 1 hex to the right.
If it has move 3, it will move all the way to the hex to the north-west of the target.

If instead both Y and T were 1 space further to the west, the only path to a hex from which the monster can attack its target would be around the obstacles, so that is the route it would take.


Could you clarify Simon? Seems to me it would move right with 1 move, but it would move NW then NE with two move wouldn't it? Doesn't it see the other monster as an obstacle? I also almost think it would go NE even if it had only 1 move because that is the route that leads to a space it can attack from right?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Simon Skov
Denmark
Copenhagen
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Monsters do not treat other monsters as obstacles, they are free to move through them during their move, they just can't end their move in a hex occupied by another monster. Keeping this in mind, the closest route the monster can move is to the right, through the other monster. It will follow this path, and try to get as close as possible to its target.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Justin Boehm
United States
New York
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
nom_ wrote:
Monsters do not treat other monsters as obstacles, they are free to move through them during their move, they just can't end their move in a hex occupied by another monster. Keeping this in mind, the closest route the monster can move is to the right, through the other monster. It will follow this path, and try to get as close as possible to its target.
.

And now I realize that there is a hex NE of monster Y... answers it all lol.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sam S
msg tools
Avatar
nom_ wrote:


If instead both Y and T were 1 space further to the west, the only path to a hex from which the monster can attack its target would be around the obstacles, so that is the route it would take.


Simon, this is the only part I don't quite get the logic of, given what you said about if it had "move 1" and "move 2" (which I agree with). Since monster Y is not considered an obstacle, wouldn't the monster simply not move in this situation (i.e. the hex monster Y is in is the same hex it tries to be in)?

I am about to post a focus/movement flowchart to the rules forum I would like your feedback on as well.

Edit: For clarity's sake, this is the situation I am asking about (X has 1 movement):

. . . . .
. - - .
. X Y T .
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Frank Pelkofer
United States
California
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
TheProdigal wrote:
nom_ wrote:


If instead both Y and T were 1 space further to the west, the only path to a hex from which the monster can attack its target would be around the obstacles, so that is the route it would take.


Simon, this is the only part I don't quite get the logic of, given what you said about if it had "move 1" and "move 2" (which I agree with). Since monster Y is not considered an obstacle, wouldn't the monster simply not move in this situation (i.e. the hex monster Y is in is the same hex it tries to be in)?

I am about to post a focus/movement flowchart to the rules forum I would like your feedback on as well.

Edit: For clarity's sake, this is the situation I am asking about (X has 1 movement):

. . . . .
. - - .
. X Y T .


You drew a different drawing. It appears that monster X doesn't have a path through Y to get to the space NE of T. The wall appears to block that route. In this case, there is no space going to the right that the monster could attack from (we're assuming monster X does not have a ranged attack in this round). In this case, no matter how much move X has, it take the long way around going NW. If I'm misunderstanding what you drew, the rest of this post is crap.

Monsters do not see their allies as obstacles. However, they also don't try to move into a hex occupied by an ally. So, X is not going to stand around and wait for Y to die. It's going to find another open space next to T and move toward it. If there were no open spaces next to T, then X would not move.

This is the hardest thing to understand about the AI, IMO. Monsters allies are not obstacles and yet, in this case, they act much the same way. It's important to remember that the monsters will always move toward an open hex. They will never have a space occupied by an ally as their target hex.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Noel Szczepanski
United States
Albuquerque
New Mexico
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
wimble wrote:



. . . . .
. - - .
. X . Y T

Does X walk forward, in the hope that Y will be out of the way before it arrives? And if Y is still there, then X simply queues up behind it, unable to get through.


It will walk forward and wait in queue. It will not move around as that would result in it ending up 3 hexes away when it could end its movement two hexes away by moving forward one. If it had four movement and could end up two hexes away by going around or two hexes away by moving forward one it would be up to the players to decide which option. The crossed out portion is WRONG because it can move through it's ally into the hex NW of its focus.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sam S
msg tools
Avatar
countertorque wrote:
TheProdigal wrote:
nom_ wrote:


If instead both Y and T were 1 space further to the west, the only path to a hex from which the monster can attack its target would be around the obstacles, so that is the route it would take.


Simon, this is the only part I don't quite get the logic of, given what you said about if it had "move 1" and "move 2" (which I agree with). Since monster Y is not considered an obstacle, wouldn't the monster simply not move in this situation (i.e. the hex monster Y is in is the same hex it tries to be in)?

I am about to post a focus/movement flowchart to the rules forum I would like your feedback on as well.

Edit: For clarity's sake, this is the situation I am asking about (X has 1 movement):

. . . . .
. - - .
. X Y T .


You drew a different drawing. It appears that monster X doesn't have a path through Y to get to the space NE of T. The wall appears to block that route. In this case, there is no space going to the right that the monster could attack from (we're assuming monster X does not have a ranged attack in this round). In this case, no matter how much move X has, it take the long way around going NW. If I'm misunderstanding what you drew, the rest of this post is crap.

Monsters do not see their allies as obstacles. However, they also don't try to move into a hex occupied by an ally. So, X is not going to stand around and wait for Y to die. It's going to find another open space next to T and move toward it. If there were no open spaces next to T, then X would not move.

This is the hardest thing to understand about the AI, IMO. Monsters allies are not obstacles and yet, in this case, they act much the same way. It's important to remember that the monsters will always move toward an open hex. They will never have a space occupied by an ally as their target hex.


Thanks for the reply, and you were interpreting the drawing correctly (I was addressing Simon's follow up situation, not the original drawing).

I still am not sure though, based on what Isaac said in the following thread, where it seems a monster will indeed not move toward an open hex that is closer to it's target simply because a shorter path exists through it's allies, and it wont move: https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1723119/monster-movement-wh...

Not saying you are wrong, just trying to clarify.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Wes Holland

North Carolina
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
P0isson wrote:
wimble wrote:



. . . . .
. - - .
. X . Y T

Does X walk forward, in the hope that Y will be out of the way before it arrives? And if Y is still there, then X simply queues up behind it, unable to get through.


It will walk forward and wait in queue. It will not move around as that would result in it ending up 3 hexes away when it could end its movement two hexes away by moving forward one. If it had four movement and could end up two hexes away by going around or two hexes away by moving forward one it would be up to the players to decide which option.


I want to point out that your 4-movement scenario is wrong, besides the fact that it can get to the open hex NW of T... But the actual thing I want to point out here is that if there are multiple paths a monster can take to get as close to its target hex as possible, it will take the path that uses the least movement: Monsters are Lazy. If, however, there are two paths that get the monster closer to the target hex, and both require the same movement, players decide.

e.g.:
. a . .
X Y Z . T
. b . .


If X, Y, and Z are Monsters, and T is a Tinkerer, and X has 2 move, both hexes 'a' and 'b' give the same distance to the nearest hex that X can hit T from (the hex between Z and T), and both require 2 move, so players can decide whether it goes to 'a' or 'b' in this case.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Simon Skov
Denmark
Copenhagen
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Sam, with the linked thread I believe the crux of the matter is that the monster is not able to get closer (measured in the amount of movement needed) to its focus by moving, and thus stays in place.

I tried to sum up the procedure for monster focus for myself here, quoted below:
Quote:
A monster will focus on an enemy that it could, given any amount of movement, move to attack. Out of all possible enemies, it will choose its focus according to the following criteria, moving on to the next one if two enemies are tied:

-Does not require the monster to walk through traps.
-Requires the least amount of movement for the monster to get in attack range
-Least distance away from the monster, counted as range (for example, if a ranged monster is already within attack range of more than one enemy, then it will prioritize the closest one).
-Lowest initiative number on leading card.
-Lowest initiative number on non-leading card.

and if there is still a tie, then the players resolve it. Once the focus has been determined, the monster moves and attacks according to the rules.

Perhaps you will find it useful
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Frank Pelkofer
United States
California
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
TheProdigal wrote:

Thanks for the reply, and you were interpreting the drawing correctly (I was addressing Simon's follow up situation, not the original drawing).

I still am not sure though, based on what Isaac said in the following thread, where it seems a monster will indeed not move toward an open hex that is closer to it's target simply because a shorter path exists through it's allies, and it wont move: https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1723119/monster-movement-wh...

Not saying you are wrong, just trying to clarify.


The difference is whether there is an empty space next to the character or not.


This

1 . . 2 C

is different than this

1 . 2 . C

In the first case, the monster does not have a valid straight line path to a space where it can attack the character. There's no OPEN hex because there's a monster there. So, it will find another way. In the second case, there is a straight line path to an open hex which goes through a monster. In this case, the monster will move as far along that path as it can.

They look very similar, but they are perceived differently by the monsters. Monsters are not obstacles, but they also aren't open spaces. A monster is always moving toward an open space for its destination.

It took me forever to get this and I still screw it up occasionally.

Edit: Again these examples are for monsters that are not doing ranged attacks in this round.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sam S
msg tools
Avatar
@Simon and @Frank, thanks for clarifying. Frank, those two situations help a lot and I think you are right. Have you both taken a look at my flowchart: https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/1F5YcJz4sY8tVP86cH6MS2x4n...

I would appreciate any feedback and if you think it covers this situation specifically or what I need to add so it does (though I should probably cool it for today, my brain is pretty fried.)

Also, what are your rulings in the following two situations (T = trap, 1,2 = Monster, H=hero):

1)
Quote:
It depends on the situation.

In the below example, Monster 1 wouldn't move if it had just 1 movement since there is a path to an open hex to attack from:

T . . .
. 2 1 .
H T . .


The difference is that there is an open hex to attack from. In the OP's example, there isn't an open hex to attack from because Monster 2 is occupying the space.


2)



If monster 5 (on the left) has move 1 and melee attack, will it move west and take the long path to '?' or will it stay put? This is why the answer is not obvious: since paths are determined assuming infinite movement, if 5 had infinite movement it would just move through 7 and then onto '?' and not take the long way around. I have not seen where Isaac addressed this, although I could be wrong.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Noel Szczepanski
United States
Albuquerque
New Mexico
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
CrushU wrote:
I want to point out that your 4-movement scenario is wrong, besides the fact that it can get to the open hex NW of T...


Thank you! Talk about a brain fart... I was so wrapped up in trying to provide an example of when it might not move forward that I failed to remember that it only needed 3 movement to get to that hex....
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Frank Pelkofer
United States
California
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
TheProdigal wrote:
@Simon and @Frank, thanks for clarifying. Frank, those two situations help a lot and I think you are right. Have you both taken a look at my flowchart: https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/1F5YcJz4sY8tVP86cH6MS2x4n...

I would appreciate any feedback and if you think it covers this situation specifically or what I need to add so it does (though I should probably cool it for today, my brain is pretty fried.)

Also, what are your rulings in the following two situations (T = trap, 1,2 = Monster, H=hero):

1)
Quote:
It depends on the situation.

In the below example, Monster 1 wouldn't move if it had just 1 movement since there is a path to an open hex to attack from:

T . . .
. 2 1 .
H T . .


The difference is that there is an open hex to attack from. In the OP's example, there isn't an open hex to attack from because Monster 2 is occupying the space.


2)



If monster 5 (on the left) has move 1 and melee attack, will it move west and take the long path to '?' or will it stay put? This is why the answer is not obvious: since paths are determined assuming infinite movement, if 5 had infinite movement it would just move through 7 and then onto '?' and not take the long way around. I have not seen where Isaac addressed this, although I could be wrong.


As I understand the rules:

1: Monster #1 doesn't move. It has a path to an open space that doesn't go through any traps. It moves as far down that path as it can, which is 0 this turn.

2: Monster 5 doesn't move. The shortest path to ? is through the other monster, so it moves as far as it can down that path, which is 0 this turn. If ? were another monster, it would still go nowhere, because it would then be trying to get to the space E of ? through both of the mosnters. If ? were a trap, it would go the long way around to the space E of ?
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mathue Faulkner
United States
Austin
TX
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
nom_ wrote:
The monster will try to move to a hex from which it can attack the hero. The monster cannot attack the hero from the space where monster Y is currently at, because it is occupied. The monster will instead move towards the hex north-west of the target, since it is the closest such hex. It will try to take the shortest path there, which is two space right and one space norht-east.

If it has move 1, it will move 1 hex to the right.
If it has move 2, it will find it is unable end its movement on top of the other monster, and will move as much as it can - 1 hex to the right.
If it has move 3, it will move all the way to the hex to the north-west of the target.

If instead both Y and T were 1 space further to the west, the only path to a hex from which the monster can attack its target would be around the obstacles, so that is the route it would take.

I just want to emphasize this part. Also, as another example, it would be true that the monster will always move around the obstacles if:


. . . . .
. - - - .
. X . Y T


1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mathue Faulkner
United States
Austin
TX
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Also, I agree with the Penguin.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sam S
msg tools
Avatar
mfaulk80 wrote:

I just want to emphasize this part. Also, as another example, it would be true that the monster will always move around the obstacles if:


. . . . .
. - - - .
. X . Y T




Yes, I agree because in this case X cannot move to the valid attack hex to the NE of T by moving through Y since that hex is not adjacent to Y. Cool, I think more of us are getting on the same page. I still don't know how to address this in the flowchart without spelling it out as an edge case, it just doesn't fit intuitively elsewhere.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Troy Laurin
Australia
Perth
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
TheProdigal wrote:
Edit: For clarity's sake, this is the situation I am asking about (X has 1 movement):

. . . . .
. - - .
. X Y T .


Regardless of how much movement X has, in this situation there are only two hexes from which it can make a melee attack on the player T:

. . . . .
. - - *
. X Y T *

This makes it abundantly clear that the only way it can possibly move is around the obstacle. Note that this is basically a reworking of the example in p30 of the rulebook.

Movement and focus become much easier to work with if you reason about the hexes from which the monster will attack, rather than the player they are trying to target.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Simon Skov
Denmark
Copenhagen
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
TheProdigal wrote:
I still don't know how to address this in the flowchart without spelling it out as an edge case, it just doesn't fit intuitively elsewhere.

I feel this should be covered in the very definition of monsters finding focus, namely that they are trying to find an unoccupied hex from which they can attack an enemy, to which they would be able to move given any amount of movementt.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jarad Bond
United States
Anchorage
Alaska
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
TheProdigal wrote:
mfaulk80 wrote:

I just want to emphasize this part. Also, as another example, it would be true that the monster will always move around the obstacles if:


. . . . .
. - - - .
. X . Y T




Yes, I agree because in this case X cannot move to the valid attack hex to the NE of T by moving through Y since that hex is not adjacent to Y. Cool, I think more of us are getting on the same page. I still don't know how to address this in the flowchart without spelling it out as an edge case, it just doesn't fit intuitively elsewhere.


I would add it to your move section. You talk about focused hexes, but you might want to choose different words. The focus section selects a focus. Then, maybe your initial move statement is something like this:

Quote:
The monster moves Edit: as close as possible toward some unoccupied hex (not necessarily the closest) from where it can attack its focus (this turn, if possible).


The bullet points then clarify how to select that hex, and are pretty good, but I'd put the multiple hexes point first, and do something like this with your first bullet point:

Quote:
It must end its movement with a shorter path to the best hex from which it could potentially attack, or it will not move.(or on) the focused hex or it will not move

or (if you talk about multiple hexes first)

It must end its movement with a shorter path to the selected hex, or it will not move.


(Side note: Your current statement isn't quite right. "Move the monster as close to the focused hex as its movement value allows", actually should be "move the minimum number of spaces toward focus from where it may attack")
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
GAF Blizzard
msg tools
mbmbmbmb
logris wrote:
(Side note: Your current statement isn't quite right. "Move the monster as close to the focused hex as its movement value allows", actually should be "move the minimum number of spaces toward focus from where it may attack")

I think the bolded is confusing, though. What exactly does it mean?

For example, take a melee monster that can't attack. A player is 10 hexes away, and the monster can move 2 hexes.

Someone might interpret "move the minimum number of spaces" as 0 or 1 spaces. The correct answer is to move 2 spaces, which is the MAXIMUM the monster can move this turn, thus making everything sound confusing.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.