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Subject: What does Rising Sun offer? rss

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Michael Noakes
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It's a genuine question--I'm not being facetious or anything here. But as I sit on the fence, reading what I can about the game, I'm wondering what it offers that I can't already find in my collection (other than the ever-pursued thrill of the new).

Rising Sun seems, first and foremost, an area-majority game. I glance at the shelf and:

Dominant Species: thematically very different. Great for 3-6 players. Wonderfully, painfully brain-burning, but perhaps can play a bit long. Rewards knowledge of the cards coming.

Chaos in the Old World: Fantastic game! Thematic, cool minis, over-produced, Eric Lang: Can Rising Sun replace it? Biggest "flaw" to CitOW is that it really seems best balanced for four players.

Blood Bowl: Team Manager: no real board, but still area control with a very slight touch of deck-building. Lots of fun! Strangely difficult to get to the table. Plays fine with 2, which the others don't seem to.

... and a few others that could scratch the itch, whether Diplomatic (Archipelago, Fief, Mare Nostrum, etc...) or Japanese (Sekigahara, Shogun--the old Milton Bradley one); and of course, there are the other games available for purchase instead: Inis, Cyclades, etc...

So what gives Rising Sun the $2m+ Kickstarter boost it's enjoying? Is it the miniatures? The Japanese theme? Its supposed roots in Diplomacy rather than Risk? It's probably a fairly risk-free purchase, though with 20k+ people buying it, turning a copy around on Ebay might not be all that easy...

The bit that's still unclear to me is how battle actually work. The "Cold War" build up of tension as contested regions are revealed is cool, and the secret bidding for the four combat options is fine (though I'm not sure how exciting the options themselves are)--but how do you determine the victor in battle? Do units have a static battle value? Ronin and monsters as well? Do alliances add their values together? How do players decide on an alliance to avoid conflict in contested areas if they don't know which areas will be revealed until after the Tea Ceremony phase?

So... yeah. Rambling post. Very tempted, on the fence, and wondering what the game's USP really is. As consumers, we're ridiculously spoiled for choice these days.... Any advice?


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Hugh Wyeth
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Weloi Avala wrote:
So what gives Rising Sun the $2m+ Kickstarter boost it's enjoying? Is it the miniatures?


Yes, it's the minis. There are 20k+ backers, yet the gameplay video doesn't even have 12k views. A lot of people not caring about the gameplay there.

I think the fact it's the same team behind Blood Rage means people are more comfortable backing it as it's less of a gamble. But take out the minis and I imagine it wouldn't reach 20% of it's current backing.
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Craig B
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Watch the gameplay video. It doesn't play out like anything you listed except maybe the closest would be a twisted interpretation of Cyclades (so not that close) or if Chaos in the Old World had alliances, open diplomacy, less clan asymmetry and weirder battle systems, but a more straight forward victory track.

It's absolutely nothing like Blood Rage, except both are CMoN, both are Eric Lang, and both are dudes on a map, oh and there's 3 ages/seasons. Everything else plays out completely differently mechanically speaking.

The reason people are backing this game is because CMoN have done an excellent job for the last 6-7 months spreading word of mouth, showing off the game components and prototype demos of the games so we already knew a little bit about how the game was going to work and whether or not this was going to fit into our collections as something that would get played and enjoyed.
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Joey Leang
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I think the main selling point is that it's the "successor" to Blood Rage.

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Conan Meriadoc
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hughwyeth wrote:
Yes, it's the minis. There are 20k+ backers, yet the gameplay video doesn't even have 12k views. A lot of people not caring about the gameplay there

I haven't watched the video. Yet I care first and foremost about gameplay, I'm just not a video person (plus, I heard it's awful as far as video playthroughs go). I've gathered all I can from text reports, summaries, etc. and can probably tell you more about the game than half of those guys that followed the video.

People are backing because they're angry they missed the Blood Rage KS, and they may or may not see what the game is genuinely about (which is definitely not blood rage)

Or, you know... everyone has their reasons, not all 20k+ backers reason the same way
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Michael Noakes
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jleang12 wrote:
I think the main selling point is that it's the "successor" to Blood Rage.



Interesting. Haven't played Blood Rage. The only review I watched for it (Shut Up and Sit Down's) was mostly positive; but this seems like a very different affair, slower and more deliberate.

With it's asymetrical Clans, three unit types and conflict resolution across different territories, it doesn't seem (mechanically) worlds apart from Chaos--obviously leaving out the bits where the game fights back, or you rain pus on your enemies.
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Hugh Wyeth
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Dystopian wrote:
hughwyeth wrote:
Yes, it's the minis. There are 20k+ backers, yet the gameplay video doesn't even have 12k views. A lot of people not caring about the gameplay there

I haven't watched the video. Yet I care first and foremost about gameplay, I'm just not a video person (plus, I heard it's awful as far as video playthroughs go). I've gathered all I can from text reports, summaries, etc. and can probably tell you more about the game than half of those guys that followed the video.

People are backing because they're angry they missed the Blood Rage KS, and they may or may not see what the game is genuinely about (which is definitely not blood rage)

Or, you know... everyone has their reasons, not all 20k+ backers reason the same way ;)


It's not a great video, but it's better than most gameplay video.

I'm backing because I'm assuming it'll be a great game as it's the same team as Blood Rage. I've got quite a good idea of the game from the vids and the minis are quite good. I'm actually a miniature wargamer so might even paint them.

I think it seemed like I was critical of people backing for the minis- i'm absolutely not. I totally get the attraction of miniatures!
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Hugefoot 00
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As background, I want to say that I don't have a very big board game collection and currently I don't own any diplomacy/alliance building games.

For me there are a couple of factors contribuiting to the decision of getting the game, which I will list in order:

1. The minis (even though I am not a painter, I can see myself getting into the hobby to paint the Rising Sun Minis).

2. The theme

3. The fact that you can negociate for literally everything in the game (except maybe victory points)

4. Interesting combat mechanics which involve bluffing, manipulating your opponents.

I will try to answer some of your questions regarding battle.
- Each unit has a strength value which counts in battle, and the side with greater strength wins the battle. You can add ronin to your units strength and each ronin represents 1 strength. (you can only add ronin if you win the bid for ronin during combat, meaning you spend more money than your opponent on the ~hire ronin~ square). If the strenghts of the two forces are tied, the one with higher honor wins. The one that wins, kills all the other units in the province. If the remaining units are part of an alliance, they can coexist without killing each other.

Monsters have their own strength in battle and can have special abilities as well.

The actions that you bid upon (behind the screen) dramaticly influence the outcome of the battle. I think that you must do them in order. The person that bids most coins gets to do the action (if tie, then most honorable does it).

As I understand, as long as you are in an alliance, your units will not fight in contested regions. The one with more units will get control of the region.

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PJ Cunningham
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I backed because I liked what they did with Blood Rage and was intrigued by the mention of RS being a spiritual successor to Diplomacy.

Turns out it's not really like either of those games, but rather more like Dune. Which is a good thing.
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Mikkel Østergaard
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Rising Sun is a negotiation-focused area control game. There are three other notable games like that: Diplomacy, Game of Thrones: The Board Game and Rex: Final Days of an Empire (or Dune if you have pillaged a museum/eBay).

What makes Rising Sun stand out from those other games is that all of them are fairly complex and lengthy games(Rex CAN be fast I've heard, but it wasn't the two times I've played it), and more or less need 5-6 to be solid, which makes it tough to get to the table. Rising Sun could therefore be a solid alternative if you want to play a negotiation area control game without making it into the one event-game you invite your friends to play.

On the Blood Rage angle, I know a lot of people are hyped about it for that reason, but personally I wasn't a fan of Blood Rage. There are certainly similarities between the games, but there some key differences that makes me interested in this without liking Blood Rage.
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Shanti Massey
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Weloi Avala wrote:

The bit that's still unclear to me is how battle actually work. The "Cold War" build up of tension as contested regions are revealed is cool, and the secret bidding for the four combat options is fine (though I'm not sure how exciting the options themselves are)--but how do you determine the victor in battle? Do units have a static battle value? Ronin and monsters as well? Do alliances add their values together? How do players decide on an alliance to avoid conflict in contested areas if they don't know which areas will be revealed until after the Tea Ceremony phase?


Each unit has a Force Value. Bushi are 1. Daimyo are 3. Monsters are varied. etc. Each side counts up the total force value of all units in the area. Then each of the 4 bidding actions will either affect the value or profit from the outcome.

Seppuku - allows you to both gain honor and avoids getting your units being taken, hostage. It's a solid option if you are fairly sure you will lose anyway. They all die, but you gain something from a situation where you would have lost.

Taking Hostages - removes one of the enemy units (of your choice; only Daimyo's are exempt from this) from the battle. Obviously, this can seriously alter the outcomes. Even monsters (mostly) can be removed in this way. You also get a little extra money at the end of the season for each hostage.

Hire Ronin - are simple force multipliers. Each is one additional force that you get to add to your side (if and only if you win the bid for them) Along with Hostages, this is the only other way to alter the total force in your favor. They are used up if you win. You are essentially throwing them into the meat grinder for victory.

Imperial Poets- is an option for gaining victory points in a battle. You can one VP for each unit killed (from either side) This is another way to profit from losing (or winning!)

It's an important point that you only activate the things to are the highest bidder on. For example, if someone outbids you in Seppuku, well, your guys are just not honorable enough to end their lives with dignity.

These things come together in a guessing game. where you both try and determine what your opponent(s) will bid on and what helps you the most. Maybe you just want the VP from a big battle. If you have a lot of ronin, you might want to use them, or just buff that you are going to use them and commit Seppuku.

Situation - You have lots of ronin to throw at a battle. You guess that your opponent will split the money between Seppuku and Poets because he feels he will lose anyway. You forgo bidding on ronin at all and instead, you let him have the Seppuku bid and bid high on poets. He gets the honor from Seppuku and they all die but you win while keeping all your ronin for another battle and claim the VP of the fallen warriors.

There is also the added twist that the money spent by the winner of a battle is distributed amongst the loser(s). So there are situations where you can actually profit from losing a battle if timed well.

What this game offers that none of the listed games do is the Negotiation elements, where alliances are made and broken, and the player interaction from guessing and counter guessing from the bidding on battles.
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Matt
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Some of the 20K+ people backing the game on Kickstarter are like me, who have a small (<40) collection and own none of the games its being compared to.

If it's so much like Chaos in the Old World, Cyclades, Blood Rage and Dune, then it fits perfectly in a small collection and I can pursue those games at a later date if they share mechanics or themes with the parts of Rising Sun that I enjoy.

Plus the miniatures are rad
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Becq
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From what I've seen, Rising Sun uses the core area control mechanics from Blood Rage, and turns it into a "betrayal management" game. And I'm not talking about the 'Betray' card specifically; it seems as though the way to win is to optimize your ability to piggy-back off your ally's mandate choices, while at the same time minimizing your ally's ability to do the same. And then there's always that bright, shiny 'Betray' card calling out to you...

But you have to make use of these tools while somehow avoiding being obvious about it. Because once you're known as "that guy", then your alliance opportunities will dry up.
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BG.EXE
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I have, and regularly play, Caverna, Agricola, and Fields of Arle. Three very similar games from the same designer.

Being similar does not mean being the same. They all have nuances I like that can't be found in each other even though they all heavily involve an engine-making mechanic.

I'm backing RS, but Dominant Species and Chaos in the Old World are still at the top of my wishlist. Again, sharing a mechanic doesn't make them the same game.
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Pietro Pomella
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Purgatus wrote:

Each unit has a Force Value. Bushi are 1. Daimyo are 3.


This is incorrect: unless upgraded with specific cards, daimyo are worth 1.


Purgatus wrote:

Taking Hostages - removes one of the enemy units (of your choice; only Daimyo's are exempt from this) from the battle. Obviously, this can seriously alter the outcomes. Even monsters (mostly) can be removed in this way. You also get a little extra money at the end of the season for each hostage.


You also get to steal 1 VP from the player that suffers from you taking their unit hostage.


Purgatus wrote:

Hire Ronin - are simple force multipliers. Each is one additional force that you get to add to your side (if and only if you win the bid for them) Along with Hostages, this is the only other way to alter the total force in your favor. They are used up if you win. You are essentially throwing them into the meat grinder for victory.


Are you sure that the ronin are all gone after you win a bid for them and use them to win a battle? It might be the case (I don't remember if it happened in the video) but I'm curious at to where you got that from.


Regardless, props for sharing the breakdown for everyone to read!
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Martin Klobouk
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For me it's the theme, gorgeous looks and that aspect of Diplomacy - which reminds me of Game of Thrones board game. I played Blood Rage and I knew that I would enjoy Rising Sun more because of the things I listed.
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Thaddeus MacTaggart
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I don't think the Dimplomacy part is THAT strong in RS. Or at least not that important as I envisioned it to be. You have options to bribe people or exchange money .. but that's not much different from other games. Alliances offer minor advantages - and breaking them isn't the end of the world either.
But it indeed offers some nice new gameplay options ..
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Shanti Massey
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Pietro Pomella wrote:
Purgatus wrote:

Each unit has a Force Value. Bushi are 1. Daimyo are 3.


This is incorrect: unless upgraded with specific cards, daimyo are worth 1.


Here we are both wrong. After looking at the video, a +3 upgrade becomes 5 force, so Daimyo's are worth 2 with no bonuses. I thought it was more, but alas.


Pietro Pomella wrote:
Purgatus wrote:

Taking Hostages - removes one of the enemy units (of your choice; only Daimyo's are exempt from this) from the battle. Obviously, this can seriously alter the outcomes. Even monsters (mostly) can be removed in this way. You also get a little extra money at the end of the season for each hostage.


You also get to steal 1 VP from the player that suffers from you taking their unit hostage.


I totally forgot to mention that part. Indeed you siphon some VP as well.


Pietro Pomella wrote:
Purgatus wrote:

Hire Ronin - are simple force multipliers. Each is one additional force that you get to add to your side (if and only if you win the bid for them) Along with Hostages, this is the only other way to alter the total force in your favor. They are used up if you win. You are essentially throwing them into the meat grinder for victory.


Are you sure that the ronin are all gone after you win a bid for them and use them to win a battle? It might be the case (I don't remember if it happened in the video) but I'm curious at to where you got that from.


Actually, I thought I saw that at one point in the video, but I'd have to see it again. It's an assumption of mine that could easily be wrong.

Pietro Pomella wrote:

Regardless, props for sharing the breakdown for everyone to read!


Likewise, thats for adding in info of youre own!
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Shanti Massey
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Teowulff wrote:
I don't think the Dimplomacy part is THAT strong in RS. Or at least not that important as I envisioned it to be. You have options to bribe people or exchange money .. but that's not much different from other games. Alliances offer minor advantages - and breaking them isn't the end of the world either.
But it indeed offers some nice new gameplay options ..


To each their own I suppose. I think it's pretty important from what I've seen. The fact that you share a big bonus action with your allies is reason enough to be very careful about who you ally with.
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Martin Klobouk
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Teowulff wrote:
I don't think the Dimplomacy part is THAT strong in RS. Or at least not that important as I envisioned it to be. You have options to bribe people or exchange money .. but that's not much different from other games. Alliances offer minor advantages - and breaking them isn't the end of the world either.
But it indeed offers some nice new gameplay options ..


I think I like the idea that there IS atleast something like that. For example in Game of Thrones you can say "i will be your ally" and then betray someone two rounds later but it doesn't have any gameplay options or even anything.

The tea party at the beginning of each season seems in my head really great - you throw away all the stuffthat someone did to you (atleast publicly) but you don't know if someone else is just waiting for that sweet betrayal for previous rounds.

I don't think that the diplomacy aspect needs more rules or something like that. I think it will be good role play wise.

Or maybe I am just babbling dumb words - i dont know if I explained myself clearly
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Pietro Pomella
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Purgatus wrote:
After looking at the video, a +3 upgrade becomes 5 force, so Daimyo's are worth 2 with no bonuses. I thought it was more, but alas.


To clarify, the "regular" Daimyo was worth 1 force (4 with the +3 upgrade), while the Yurei (that lovely monster made of too many limbs) counts as a Daimyo with 2 force, hence resulting in a total of 5 after the upgrade came into play.

Bottom line: daimyos are not particularly strong, but they are immune to nasty tricks, and can be upgraded into powerful fighters.
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Thaddeus MacTaggart
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Purgatus wrote:
Teowulff wrote:
I don't think the Dimplomacy part is THAT strong in RS. Or at least not that important as I envisioned it to be. You have options to bribe people or exchange money .. but that's not much different from other games. Alliances offer minor advantages - and breaking them isn't the end of the world either.
But it indeed offers some nice new gameplay options ..

To each their own I suppose. I think it's pretty important from what I've seen. The fact that you share a big bonus action with your allies is reason enough to be very careful about who you ally with.


Well "BIG bonus".. not all Mandates give such big alliance bonusses and it depends on how much money you have how important they are.
As you may have seen in the gameplay vid, sometimes a clan has up to 20 coins at the beginning of a season.

I think "Harvest" is actually the Mandate that gives the strongest alliance bonus. But 1 less coin .. summon 1 more Bushi .. hardly game breakingly good.
Nice but not overwhelming. Definitely not better than what some season cards can grant you.
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Shanti Massey
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Pietro Pomella wrote:
Purgatus wrote:
After looking at the video, a +3 upgrade becomes 5 force, so Daimyo's are worth 2 with no bonuses. I thought it was more, but alas.


To clarify, the "regular" Daimyo was worth 1 force (4 with the +3 upgrade), while the Yurei (that lovely monster made of too many limbs) counts as a Daimyo with 2 force, hence resulting in a total of 5 after the upgrade came into play.

Bottom line: daimyos are not particularly strong, but they are immune to nasty tricks, and can be upgraded into powerful fighters.


You are 1000% correct. Far more than most humans.
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Jon Snow
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The combo of this designer and artist seems to have produced a breakthrough team. And according to the KS discussion, both have just been hired by CMON! So clearly they think so too.
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Shanti Massey
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Teowulff wrote:
Purgatus wrote:
Teowulff wrote:
I don't think the Dimplomacy part is THAT strong in RS. Or at least not that important as I envisioned it to be. You have options to bribe people or exchange money .. but that's not much different from other games. Alliances offer minor advantages - and breaking them isn't the end of the world either.
But it indeed offers some nice new gameplay options ..

To each their own I suppose. I think it's pretty important from what I've seen. The fact that you share a big bonus action with your allies is reason enough to be very careful about who you ally with.


Well "BIG bonus".. not all Mandates give such big alliance bonusses and it depends on how much money you have how important they are.
As you may have seen in the gameplay vid, sometimes a clan has up to 20 coins at the beginning of a season.

I think "Harvest" is actually the Mandate that gives the strongest alliance bonus. But 1 less coin .. summon 1 more Bushi .. hardly game breakingly good.
Nice but not overwhelming. Definitely not better than what some season cards can grant you.


Again, I understand your point, but the only one that strikes me as somewhat weak is the Train bonus (and honestly, that's because I don't know the real value of money in the game)

The bonus from recruit allows you to place anywhere (and not just Strongholds) if I'm not mistaken. That strikes me as quite stong. If thats not the case, it does seem rather weak.

The Marshal Action allows you to buy Stongholds. Also quite stong.

Harvest, as you said, is strong.
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