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Subject: For those who fear the "take that"... rss

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Alexandra M
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I know that the designers have addressed this too, but I wanted to make a post too as just a player

My fiance and I have gotten to play two games of this so far (Pirate/Robot, and Gangster/Jungle) and we have attacked each other a grand total of once so far. With the second game, with Gangster and Jungle, I think we had essentially decided to just only do the events that helped us, and barely looked at the "mean" parts. It took literally nothing away from game play and was quite fun! I know the Gangster deck is known to be mean but it was extremely extremely easy to play it without it being mean! We haven't tried Ninja yet, but I imagine it will be the same way.

This is not a game where you have to do take that. You can, and I imagine we will with other people, but I want to reiterate that the calm game is super fun and does not take away from the game! You need not fear! Playing with World Peace, or unofficial world peace, still gives you an excellent excellent game! Those who find the game too mean may need to play a little less mean Or maybe play with people who are a little less mean!
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BG.EXE
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My wife and I have actually not had a direct "take that" on each other yet despite not playing with any Game Changers at all. Though we're trying Ninjas for the first time tonight. Last night I was even specifically looking for an opportunity to destroy and steal her Ferris Wheel and it never came up (blueprint failed but I still won )


Gangsters was so far my favorite pack, very unique gameplay.

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Evan Scussel
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You guys raise something I have been thinking about a lot in regards to this game, and that's the setting and the company you play it with.

I've played it four times so far at player counts of 3, 2, 4 and 4. In my three and four player games there was quite a bit of take that. In my two player game, there was virtually none (other than some of the unfair city cards which you have no control over).

I think it's a behavioral thing that people are less apt to attack when playing two-player. First off, it feels more vicious at that player count. You have to look the other player in the eye when you do it and when you play two player, you are probably playing with someone you know intimately, like your wife or son/daughter. In a four player game, you might be playing with randoms or strangers and feel better about attacking. Also, you don't have as much of a conscious about doing it because each attack is less penalizing when they are spread out a bit more.

This may be anecdotal, but I think there might be something to it. I will be interested to read your thoughts when you play it with higher player counts.
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Désirée Greverud
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GoingTopShelf wrote:
You guys raise something I have been thinking about a lot in regards to this game, and that's the setting and the company you play it with.

I've played it four times so far at player counts of 3, 2, 4 and 4. In my three and four player games there was quite a bit of take that. In my two player game, there was virtually none (other than some of the unfair city cards which you have no control over).

I think it's a behavioral thing that people are less apt to attack when playing two-player. First off, it feels more vicious at that player count. You have to look the other player in the eye when you do it and when you play two player, you are probably playing with someone you know intimately, like your wife or son/daughter. In a four player game, you might be playing with randoms or strangers and feel better about attacking. Also, you don't have as much of a conscious about doing it because each attack is less penalizing when they are spread out a bit more.

This may be anecdotal, but I think there might be something to it. I will be interested to read your thoughts when you play it with higher player counts.

the funny thing is, at 2 players, attacks are more beneficial to you directly. Your opponent loses points, you gain points. At 3 or 4, attacking one player helps you and 1 or 2 others
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Evan Scussel
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DragonsDream wrote:
the funny thing is, at 2 players, attacks are more beneficial to you directly. Your opponent loses points, you gain points. At 3 or 4, attacking one player helps you and 1 or 2 others


Completely agree, but attacks in this setting feel more mean and make you feel more guilty, which subconsciously may make you less apt to do them.
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William Aull
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No one minds a 'take that' every once in awhile, but you need options to protect yourself from it.

In our last game, I had a Staff Member who could mesmerize someone else's Staff Member and could keep them until the Cleanup phase; I used this to take someone's Staff Member properly (making them not pleased). Someone else had played an Event card where I had to pay 3 coins for each staff member or lose said staff member... you can see where this is going. I didn't pay for the mesmerized staff member, and they were disbanded.

Combined with a few other take-that moments, people were having less and less fun because of the massive changes they could have on you. Someone built a hotel and beefed it up just to get the Casino on it; someone promptly destroyed the upgrade the next turn, and they never touched the hotel again. That staff member I didn't pay the upkeep on gave its park owner 2 coins per star on one of their buildings every Guest phase; that would've been a huge windfall of coins near the end of the game. And there wasn't a single card they could've used to prevent that from happening.

It's not that there are 'take that' actions, it's that they are so game-changing and there are so few options to do anything about them. It hurts having a 'cancel an inspection, etc etc' card in your hand but people are playing inspection-type cards and you can't cancel them because they arent labeled 'inspection'.
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BG.EXE
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I lost to a "destroy thing" event in my first game, 38 point swing because of one event. It comes down to "play better", which isn't something people really like to hear. After raging for a minute I realized I could have:

* Built a flag pole
* Held the upgrade that cost me the game in my hand until after the last event phase
* Prepared a duplicate ride+upgrade combo so losing one wouldn't lose me the game

At this point I'm certain the second option is the best of the three, but any were better than what I did which was "build upgrade right away because I was excited".

It's interesting how a game that can seem so light actually has a much, much deeper layer of decision making. The way people play can shove you off a cliff forcing you to belly flop into that layer, and I think this is what brings some of these reactions out. Tom Vasel did the same thing, blamed the game for some bad decisions he made during play. People are forced to face the fact they made a bad decision earlier.

As an aside, the Gangster pack has tons of options for blocking events (particularly intrusion and injunction). Last game I held an Intrusion blocking event in my hand from Round 1 and used it in Round 7. And as fun as the Casino upgrade is, hotels are still great without a casino. They're a 12 point drop that can take basically every 4-7 coin upgrade and also work with two huge blueprints.
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Joel Finch
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Hillean wrote:
And there wasn't a single card they could've used to prevent that from happening.

Technically, they could have used Head Hunting to steal back their staff member early, and since they could see by that time that the Night-time Opening was in effect, it would have been a good choice if they had it.

Instant Karma wouldn't have worked because of the mesmerism token but they could have had the satisfaction of mesmerising your Mesmerist and then failing to pay and dismissing him in the Guests step as well, which would have been Slightly-less-than-instant Karma.

Dumpster Diving is always available to retrieve lost pieces, and Vlad's Impaler has a similar ability for staff.

Also note that the different pack combinations will change what the options are. Those options above are available in Vampire, where the Mesmerist lives, but other packs may have their own solutions.

For example in the upcoming B-movies, you can expect to see some direct protection for important staff members (not final art):



The Kickstarter sneak-peek of the Street Performer could have been used to duplicate the Mesmerist, and if the other player was before the Mesmerist in turn order, could have used his own power on him before he got a go...

The point being that there are plenty of options - the core Event cards have been designed as a toolkit for achieving your goals, and while a direct defense is often possible, some remedy or mitigation is available when defense fails.
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Trey Chambers
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My problem with "If you don't like take that, just play with these cards or this event which removes or severely limits attacks" is that you're basically saying, well if you remove or never play with a significant portion of the game, you'd enjoy it.
 
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Joel Finch
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If the concern is that a player using World Peace is "missing out" on a lot of the game, I don't see that as a major objection, because they're missing out on exactly what they don't want anyway (and it's not a lot of the game, it's an aspect - Tom may have decided the game is Take That, but to me, the primary activity is Tableau Builder, if it must have a pigeon-hole).

I personally can't stand the taste of cucumber, and I pick it out of salads - I don't consider it missing out when I get a salad with no cucumber in it. Why do I eat salads with cucumber at all? I love the flavours of Thai Beef Salad - once the cucumber is gone.

If the objection is that a player has paid for all this content that they now don't get to use, consider that if I designed the game with no attacking, then all the non-attacking Event cards would simply be full-face. Event cards would have a larger image, but it would otherwise be the same number of cards.

Designed without attacking, the game wouldn't be substantially different than it is when played with World Peace. In fact, in early versions of the game, the Event cards were all a single effect with no second part to choose from.



The same range of non-attacking tools for searching, discount building, drawing cards, managing blueprints, etc would still be required.

I suppose if a player doesn't want to even see the attack events at all, they could modify the Print-n-Play to make single-card versions of the events, but ignoring them seems like less work
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Kate Finch
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joelfinch wrote:
I personally can't stand the taste of cucumber, and I pick it out of salads.

I can confirm this is true. It's very sad if you love cucumber as much as I do, but on the other hand, I get to eat all of his cucumber so it's kind of good.
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Trey Chambers
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If the cucumber is like 25% of the $50 salad you purchased, you might notice and care.

Or, more likely, you would just skip buying that particular salad, and spend your money on a salad you enjoy fully.
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Richard A. Edwards
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I find that the more I play the game the less I mind the "take that" elements. And we really enjoyed the game without them when we started.

Unfair is probably one of the most flexible games I've ever had the joy of playing. Lots of ways to play and they all work amazingly well. And enjoying one variant seems to lead to trying others, whereas those who only tried one way once (like Tom?) might find a form they don't like and sadly write the game off without Trying others.

I don't criticize anyone for playing it any way they wish anymore than I'd criticize someone playing a cooperative game with several difficulty levels on Easy instead of Impossible. To each their own.

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Joel Finch
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In our case, the amount of cucumber in the salad is available for everyone to see in the free PnP version before we ask them to spend $50. In fact, you can eat our salad without ever paying us a cent if you prefer to make it yourself at home.

Only a couple of cards in each theme pack become significantly less useful under World Peace, and even then only in packs like Ninja with a higher proportion of attacking elements.

It is often the case, particularly in a two player game, that I will play without using or only very occasionally using any attacks at all. Banning them by agreement isn't a loss of 25% of the functionality.
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Pete Wrigley
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Trey Chambers, the salad packaging did say contains cucumber........whistle
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Trey Chambers
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pwrigley wrote:
Trey Chambers, the salad packaging did say contains cucumber........whistle


Right. Did you miss the part where I didn't buy it?
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Pete Wrigley
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Yep!
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Evan Scussel
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misskatja wrote:
joelfinch wrote:
I personally can't stand the taste of cucumber, and I pick it out of salads.

I can confirm this is true. It's very sad if you love cucumber as much as I do, but on the other hand, I get to eat all of his cucumber so it's kind of good.


Could this possibly be a euphemism? Double entendre? Nah. I must be overthinking it.
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Kate Finch
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GoingTopShelf wrote:
misskatja wrote:
joelfinch wrote:
I personally can't stand the taste of cucumber, and I pick it out of salads.

I can confirm this is true. It's very sad if you love cucumber as much as I do, but on the other hand, I get to eat all of his cucumber so it's kind of good.


Could this possibly be a euphemism? Double entendre? Nah. I must be overthinking it.


Definitely overthinking it.
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Joel Finch
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GoingTopShelf wrote:
Could this possibly be a euphemism? Double entendre? Nah. I must be overthinking it.

Sometimes a cucumber is just a cucumber.
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BG.EXE
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Shampoo4you wrote:

if you remove or never play with a significant portion of the game, you'd enjoy it


It's hardly a significant portion, and nowhere near 25%. Even Ninja can be played well without attacking. It's a flavor option much like Joel suggested.

SirRoke wrote:
Unfair is probably one of the most flexible games I've ever had the joy of playing. Lots of ways to play and they all work amazingly well.


This is worth repeating. This is the game for the highly customized world we live in. You can set it up how you want to play, all methods are equally valid, and you're not missing out by choosing to play it one way or another.
Let go of FOMO and just play the way that makes you happy.

Edit: Oof. He hasn't even played it. Why are you commenting in a first-hand tone on a game you've never played?
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Shaun
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My only issue with take that is the fact the blueprints exist.

Most people just spam event cards that destroy features/upgrades on your attractions during the event phase, and as a result one event can cost you over 30 points.

There isn't much you can do to prevent that except building redundancy, which you can't even do with themes.
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Paul Long
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shwayne wrote:
My only issue with take that is the fact the blueprints exist.

Most people just spam event cards that destroy features/upgrades on your attractions during the event phase, and as a result one event can cost you over 30 points.

There isn't much you can do to prevent that except building redundancy, which you can't even do with themes.


My wife would disagree with you. She generally plays a blueprint heavy strategy and most times making them all.

Yes 1 event card can involve a big point swing, if the blueprinter doesn't take steps to avoid it. If you check the strategy guide, there are multiple ways to protect blueprints - decoys, holding cards in your hand, dumpster diving (to get it back), duplicates etc.

But yes, you only get points for what you can build and keep built at the end of the game.
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Trey Chambers
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Yup, in my game someone played an event that took 30 points in coins from the player in first, and that swing gave a different player the victory.

One. Card.

Kind of silly. The game is far too long to justify those kind of random swings. That's like Uno level "teehee I drew a Draw 4, take that!"
 
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Graham Gass
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Shampoo4you wrote:

Yup, in my game someone played an event that took 30 points in coins from the player in first, and that swing gave a different player the victory.

One. Card.

Kind of silly. The game is far too long to justify those kind of random swings. That's like Uno level "teehee I drew a Draw 4, take that!"


This is why knowing what cards are in what decks is super important after your first few games. If I remember correctly, that event you mention is an intrusion event. So if I know it's in the game I'm not gonna pile up coins if I don't have an intrusion defense.
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