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Trickerion: Legends of Illusion» Forums » Rules

Subject: Performance Phase rss

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Barbapapa Barbapou
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Hello,

the players with their Magicians on the performance slots are obliged to do their "perform" Actions?

the rules say : ...may choose a performance card...

Thank you
 
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Barbapapa2014 wrote:
Hello,

the players with their Magicians on the performance slots are obliged to do their "perform" Actions?

the rules say : ...may choose a performance card...

Thank you

I do believe that it is optional.
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Barbapapa Barbapou
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Thank you!
 
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B C Z
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I would be interested in a voluntary situation where I deployed my 3-action Magician into the theater and *didn't* execute a performance.

I know it can happen that you're late to perform and other players have taken up all performances that contain your tricks (perhaps to keep a performance tricked-up for next day).

But is there really a situation where you could get points from a performance and would choose to not do it?
 
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Michael D
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My question is does Yorumba still get to pay a shard to select a performance card if the opponent opts to not choose a card.

My thoughts are he can mandate a performance.

Thoughts?
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George
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byronczimmer wrote:
But is there really a situation where you could get points from a performance and would choose to not do it?


I guess when another player (in the lead) would get more points than you would?

electricalstorm wrote:
My question is does Yorumba still get to pay a shard to select a performance card if the opponent opts to not choose a card.

My thoughts are he can mandate a performance.

Thoughts?


I'd agree Yoruba can "force" a performance. His ability wouldn't mean much if the player can just cancel whenever he wants to use his ability!
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electricalstorm wrote:
My question is does Yorumba still get to pay a shard to select a performance card if the opponent opts to not choose a card.

My thoughts are he can mandate a performance.

Thoughts?
technically he does this before a player chooses a performance.
 
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Adrian Schmidt
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soosy wrote:
byronczimmer wrote:
But is there really a situation where you could get points from a performance and would choose to not do it?


I guess when another player (in the lead) would get more points than you would?


Or if you are performing on Sunday in the last round, the only performance you have a trick marker on that's left has a lousy trick for you and a bunch of great tricks for your opponent.

It's unlikely, because your opponent would probably have performed that card already if they performed before you that round, but still, it's a possibility. If you're in a slight lead, it could even mean giving away the victory if you perform that card.

I agree that performing is optional. I also agree that Yoruba can force an opponent to perform.

EDIT: By the way, nice to see the Trickerion forum lighting up my subscription notification regularly nowadays. A side effect of Anachrony being so popular perhaps? My top 2 games without a doubt!
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James J

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corkysru wrote:
Barbapapa2014 wrote:
Hello,

the players with their Magicians on the performance slots are obliged to do their "perform" Actions?

the rules say : ...may choose a performance card...

Thank you

I do believe that it is optional.


This has come up in at least two threads, yet I don't think we've gotten an official answer on it. I agree that the use of "may" very strongly implies it is optional, but thematically and game-wise it seems wrong. Once you committed to putting your magician on stage, you shouldn't be able to walk off without some form of penalty (other than the loss of those 3 action points). I personally feel its in the spirit of the game that a performance is required at that point (the player could have left their magician idle or placed them backstage prior to this), but I did rule that it was optional during a recent game due to the wording. However, I'd really like to hear it straight from the source.

In this particular case, one magician claimed Sunday and had loaded several performance cards with tier 2 tricks. The magician on Saturday had tricks on two cards, but the better card was performed by Friday's magician. Performing the only card left would have netted them one trick vs several (pumped up by the Sunday modifier) for the final magician. Seems like a lot of effort to lay a trap only to have someone walk away from it at the last second.
 
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Patrick G.
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japester1 wrote:
corkysru wrote:
Barbapapa2014 wrote:
Hello,

the players with their Magicians on the performance slots are obliged to do their "perform" Actions?

the rules say : ...may choose a performance card...

Thank you

I do believe that it is optional.


This has come up in at least two threads, yet I don't think we've gotten an official answer on it. I agree that the use of "may" very strongly implies it is optional, but thematically and game-wise it seems wrong. Once you committed to putting your magician on stage, you shouldn't be able to walk off without some form of penalty (other than the loss of those 3 action points). I personally feel its in the spirit of the game that a performance is required at that point (the player could have left their magician idle or placed them backstage prior to this), but I did rule that it was optional during a recent game due to the wording. However, I'd really like to hear it straight from the source.

In this particular case, one magician claimed Sunday and had loaded several performance cards with tier 2 tricks. The magician on Saturday had tricks on two cards, but the better card was performed by Friday's magician. Performing the only card left would have netted them one trick vs several (pumped up by the Sunday modifier) for the final magician. Seems like a lot of effort to lay a trap only to have someone walk away from it at the last second.

#1 The word may does not imply anything. It out right states it.
'dictionary' wrote:

1.expressing possibility.
2.expressing permission.

Also mechanically I don't think it's unfair to make someone lose their 3 action point piece to not perform.

Thematically just think of someone getting sick before a performance.
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James J

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corkysru wrote:

#1 The word may does not imply anything. It out right states it.
'dictionary' wrote:

1.expressing possibility.
2.expressing permission.

Also mechanically I don't think it's unfair to make someone lose their 3 action point piece to not perform.

Thematically just think of someone getting sick before a performance.


Really? Quoting the dictionary? You must be a popular guy. whistle

Allow me to rephrase. The use of the word "may" could be a mistake, owing that this is a complex game which was designed by a team in Hungary (who I assume learned English as a secondary language) on their first outing. I'm not about to pull out the slide rule and declare superiority without a little discussion first.

Does that work for you?

And, ironically, I'm going to assume your last comment was worded incorrectly. I don't think it's unfair to make someone lose their 3 action points. I think it's unfair to only make them lose 3 action points. Oddly enough, I was a stage performer for over a decade. And you don't bill yourself for a show and then call it off at the last second without consequences. "The show must go on." If a magician takes the stage and doesn't perform, it should cause fame loss at the very least. It simply isn't done.
 
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Adrian Schmidt
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japester1 wrote:
corkysru wrote:

#1 The word may does not imply anything. It out right states it.
'dictionary' wrote:

1.expressing possibility.
2.expressing permission.

Also mechanically I don't think it's unfair to make someone lose their 3 action point piece to not perform.

Thematically just think of someone getting sick before a performance.


Really? Quoting the dictionary? You must be a popular guy. whistle

Allow me to rephrase. The use of the word "may" could be a mistake, owing that this is a complex game which was designed by a team in Hungary (who I assume learned English as a secondary language) on their first outing. I'm not about to pull out the slide rule and declare superiority without a little discussion first.

Does that work for you?

And, ironically, I'm going to assume your last comment was worded incorrectly. I don't think it's unfair to make someone lose their 3 action points. I think it's unfair to only make them lose 3 action points. Oddly enough, I was a stage performer for over a decade. And you don't bill yourself for a show and then call it off at the last second without consequences. "The show must go on." If a magician takes the stage and doesn't perform, it should cause fame loss at the very least. It simply isn't done.


I'm sorry, but there is no ambiguity in how the word "may" is used here. If the designers would errata that rule, fine, but until then, it's optional. Feel free to houserule though!

As to what's most thematic: Trickerion is a euro. A euro with lots of theme, but still a euro. As such, it's not surprising that mechanisms trump theme.
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Patrick G.
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japester1 wrote:
corkysru wrote:

#1 The word may does not imply anything. It out right states it.
'dictionary' wrote:

1.expressing possibility.
2.expressing permission.

Also mechanically I don't think it's unfair to make someone lose their 3 action point piece to not perform.

Thematically just think of someone getting sick before a performance.


Really? Quoting the dictionary? You must be a popular guy. whistle

Allow me to rephrase. The use of the word "may" could be a mistake, owing that this is a complex game which was designed by a team in Hungary (who I assume learned English as a secondary language) on their first outing. I'm not about to pull out the slide rule and declare superiority without a little discussion first.

Does that work for you?

And, ironically, I'm going to assume your last comment was worded incorrectly. I don't think it's unfair to make someone lose their 3 action points. I think it's unfair to only make them lose 3 action points. Oddly enough, I was a stage performer for over a decade. And you don't bill yourself for a show and then call it off at the last second without consequences. "The show must go on." If a magician takes the stage and doesn't perform, it should cause fame loss at the very least. It simply isn't done.

Personal attacks being ignored....
No. That does not work for me.

If this were a more Ameritrashy game.. I'd agree. But despite the wonderfully integrated theme this is still a heavy Euro.
Plus the rule book is actually VERY well translated. I have read a lot of ones that are poorly translated and I would agree things are up for interpretation a lot more. Not in this case. There are many times when things are listed as optional or mandatory by the use of may. I don't take it as an accident.

You don't like it? Fine. House rule it. But make sure it's understand that is what it is.
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Barbapapa Barbapou
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Hi All,

Don't forget that you can always put the magician at rest(Idle) before doing the action.

It may be that if you decide not to put the magician at rest, you must do the action.(if at least one of your trick markers is on performance card)



 
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Adrian Schmidt
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Barbapapa2014 wrote:
Hi All,

Don't forget that you can always put the magician at rest(Idle) before doing the action.

It may be that if you decide not to put the magician at rest, you must do the action.(if at least one of your trick markers is on performance card)


We're talking specifically about the situation where the Magician has already been put on the Perform action slot.
 
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James J

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corkysru wrote:

Personal attacks being ignored....


Ironic, considering you started it by quoting the dictionary. FYI, that's pretty much always seen as insulting. Also FYI, mentioning that you are ignoring something...isn't really ignoring it.

It seems like the veteran gamers are in agreement, so I'll bow to that consensus. I'd still rather hear Viktor confirm it, but as I stated up above, I already ruled in favor of the literal translation, just like everyone else. The discussion I was hoping to have here was whether this fits mechanically or thematically, as I still feel it doesn't on either point. And it is exceedingly rare for me to say that. I am by no means a gaming expert.

As stated, this gives a player no less than three chances to back out of a performance after assigning the theatre card (staying idle, going backstage, taking the stage and simply walking off). Can anyone with more experience with euros think of a situation where you can commit a worker to a primary action (performing is, after all, the central action in the game) and get that many chances to just walk away from the action? I'm curious.
 
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Adrian Schmidt
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japester1 wrote:
corkysru wrote:

Personal attacks being ignored....


Ironic, considering you started it by quoting the dictionary. FYI, that's pretty much always seen as insulting.


I don't really want to drag this discussion out too much, but in threads discussing how to interpret the wording of rulebooks, I've seen lots of dictionary quoting. I hardly think it's warranted to take personal insult from that, given the circumstance, nor to reply with one.

As for the question at hand, you're correct that you're usually not allowed to take a primary action slot and then not do the action.
 
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japester1 wrote:
It seems like the veteran gamers are in agreement, so I'll bow to that consensus. I'd still rather hear Viktor confirm it, but as I stated up above, I already ruled in favor of the literal translation, just like everyone else. The discussion I was hoping to have here was whether this fits mechanically or thematically, as I still feel it doesn't on either point. And it is exceedingly rare for me to say that. I am by no means a gaming expert.

As stated, this gives a player no less than three chances to back out of a performance after assigning the theatre card (staying idle, going backstage, taking the stage and simply walking off). Can anyone with more experience with euros think of a situation where you can commit a worker to a primary action (performing is, after all, the central action in the game) and get that many chances to just walk away from the action? I'm curious.


Well, first off, I haven't played that many times. But I don't really see how it would be better if you were forced to perform in the rare situation where it would give an opponent more points and perhaps the win. Seems like a fine game design choice to make it optional.

This is a somewhat unique type of action space for a Euro, as usually an action will only benefit the player making it. As for examples of other games where you don't have to do the action. Ones coming to mind are Scythe where you don't have to take the green "bonuses" of an action if you don't want to. In Viticulture, the original rules had a "Friendly" rule where you had to take the action of a space (so you couldn't just block others), but they later removed that rule in the newer editions. But I can't think of an example using this same type of space—an action that benefits more than 1 person. (I'm sure there are, just can't think of any right now.)

You mentioned one situation earlier:

japester1 wrote:
In this particular case, one magician claimed Sunday and had loaded several performance cards with tier 2 tricks. The magician on Saturday had tricks on two cards, but the better card was performed by Friday's magician. Performing the only card left would have netted them one trick vs several (pumped up by the Sunday modifier) for the final magician. Seems like a lot of effort to lay a trap only to have someone walk away from it at the last second.


So you're saying it's a bit unfair that Person A went through the effort of laying a trap, which Person B could just choose to nullify by not performing?

I can see that angle, but I still don't think a person should be forced to perform a show that gives others more points, just because the show they were going to perform already got performed. It seems like too much of a downside if you have to double think "I really need to perform this last show, but if someone else performs it, then I have to give someone else points, but if I don't try to perform, it might not get performed at all..." *mind explodes*
 
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Désirée Greverud
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In rereading the rules, I am going to attempt to argue that the performance is required. The question here seems to turn on the use of the word "may" in the rule "In a Thursday to Sunday order (NOT in the Initiative Order), a
player with a Magician on the respective Performance slot may
choose a Performance card that has at least one of his or her Trick
Markers on it, and Performs ALL Tricks on it."

I would argue that the "may" is referring to which performance card may be chosen. You may chose a card with your own tricks on it. You may not chose a card without your own tricks. Not "you may (or may not) choose a card to perform"

The highlighted box after the detail rules states "Perform (summary)
In the weekday order, players with a Magician on one of the
Performance slots choose ONE Performance card with their own
Trick Marker(s) on it and Perform ALL Tricks on it." nothing optional there.

Barring an official ruling, I am going to play and teach, that if you have chosen to perform, and a card exists with your tricks on it, you must perform.
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Adrian Schmidt
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DragonsDream wrote:
In rereading the rules, I am going to attempt to argue that the performance is required. The question here seems to turn on the use of the word "may" in the rule "In a Thursday to Sunday order (NOT in the Initiative Order), a
player with a Magician on the respective Performance slot may
choose a Performance card that has at least one of his or her Trick
Markers on it, and Performs ALL Tricks on it."

I would argue that the "may" is referring to which performance card may be chosen. You may chose a card with your own tricks on it. You may not chose a card without your own tricks. Not "you may (or may not) choose a card to perform"

The highlighted box after the detail rules states "Perform (summary)
In the weekday order, players with a Magician on one of the
Performance slots choose ONE Performance card with their own
Trick Marker(s) on it and Perform ALL Tricks on it." nothing optional there.

Barring an official ruling, I am going to play and teach, that if you have chosen to perform, and a card exists with your tricks on it, you must perform.


Yeah, ok, I can see that. I'm undecided at this point. An official ruling would be great.
 
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Barbapapa Barbapou
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Hi All,

I asked Viktor the question and he answered:

Hi,

Sorry for my late reply! To answer the questions, you do not have to choose a performance, it's optional (hence the "may" in the sentence), and unfortunately you cannot place the new Apprentice on the Assistant's board if both are hired on the same turn, since you receive the Assistant (and his/her board) only at the end of the turn, when you retrieve your helpers from the board.

I hope this helps!

Best regards,

Viktor
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Barbapapa2014 wrote:

(hence the "may" in the sentence)

Zing!
 
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japester1 wrote:
but I did rule that it was optional during a recent game due to the wording. However, I'd really like to hear it straight from the source.


Glad to hear we played it right and to have it cleared up, even if I disagree!
 
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really disagree with this ruling. I understand why, mechanically, you might not want to perform, but thematically, it's a mess. Putting your magician in the theater but not doing any tricks (presumably to avoid giving points to an opponent) should cost you something more than just not scoring whatever points you might have received.
 
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DragonsDream wrote:
really disagree with this ruling. I understand why, mechanically, you might not want to perform, but thematically, it's a mess. Putting your magician in the theater but not doing any tricks (presumably to avoid giving points to an opponent) should cost you something more than just not scoring whatever points you might have received.

It costs you three action points.

That's pretty damn significant in game terms.
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